How do I impart maximum flavour with my post boil hopping!

[BrewBoyJoe]

I used the following hop bill in my last beer


100% = 9.75 lb = 4.42 kg, Two-row pale malt

Bittering hops: 1 oz ≈ 28.3 g, Chinook, 60 minutes
Flavor hops: 1 oz ≈ 28.3 g, Willamette, 30 minutes
Aroma hops: .5 oz ≈ 14.2 g, Liberty, 10 minutes
Aroma hops: .5 oz ≈ 14.2 g, Cascade, at flame-out
Aroma hops : 1 oz ≈ 28.3 g, Chinook, dry-hops added to secondary fermentor one week before bottling/kegging

Here is the full information.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53298


The beer I was trying to clone, Fullers Wild River has a strong citrusy character,of which I assumed the cascade imparted a significant amount! I added my cascade at 80 degrees and it took about 1.5 to 2 hours to cool the wort to pitching temp. My set up for wort cooling is very basic and ad hoc! I do plan to change this at some point.

Anyhow! The beer did not have much of a citrusy character! This recipe was made up! I knew the hop types but not the time points in the boil or amounts. How can I get this citrusy flavour to come out more? Perhaps the slow to cool wort is leading to a loss of the delicate hop oils. Or… Maybe I should be adding it at 10 min to go time point to extract more! BTW, I used WLP001 which is pretty clean and should allow the hops to come through. I think I will probably dry hop with some Cascade, although l loved what the Chinook dry hop did for the beer! Although I do like it and will drink it all (despite the high bitterness levels), I think there are some improvements to be made!

Just as an aside. Subsequent to this recipe, I have worked out how to calculate the IBU’s in the finished beer. The recipe leads to 68 IBU’s. The Fuller’s specifies 51 which I know is high already! I am planning to amend this hop bill for Saturdays 3rd November re run. Your comments on the hop bill / post boil hopping with cascade will be really helpful with this.

Thanks for your help

Notes from the brewer
But head brewer John Keeling was intrigued to discover when he was researching old recipe books at the brewery that in 1891 Fuller’s imported American hops from Oregon and barley from California. At the same time, he was considering introducing a new seasonal draught beer to his range and was impressed by the craft beers brewed in the U.S.
“I wanted my own interpretation of full-flavoured, hoppy beers,” he says. “American micros, when they started, were influenced by British beer and now British brewers are being influenced by American craft brewers.”
For Wild River, 4.5%, John uses pale malt only, with no darker crystal malt for colour or flavour. The four hops are Cascade, Chinook, Liberty and Willamette from the West Coast of the United States. They are added at different stages of the copper boil and also in the fermenting vessel. John Keeling says he uses Cascade sparingly as a result of its extreme bitterness and citrus character: “I use a lot of Liberty as they are more subtle. I use just pale malt as that allows the hops to shine through.”
It has taken three years to design and develop the beer. It has 51 units of bitterness: London Pride has 30 units, ESB 34. The pale gold beer has a big citrus aroma of grapefruit, orange peel and fresh lemons, with tart hop resins and biscuit malt. There is massive bitterness in both the mouth and the finish with tangy citrus fruit and a quinine-like bitterness from the hops. It’s finally dry and superbly refreshing.
John Keeling describes Wild River as “the gin and tonic of the beer world”. It’s available in the Fuller’s pub estate and free trade until the end of August. If it’s well-received, it could become a regular member of the brewery’s portfolio and Fuller’s will consider producing a bottled version with a higher level of alcohol. The brewery hopes to have the draught version available on its stand at the Great British Festival at the beginning of August.

[Jocky]

First things first, it might be worth posting this in one of the other forums - it's not really about extract brewing per se, so you might not get many responses in here. Anyway, my two penneth:

Was the problem a missing bitterness, a missing taste, or missing aroma... or all three?

IBUs/EBUs whatever you call them - calculating them is not an exact thing. There are three main formulas, and they'll all give you different values, so they're really just a guide. Additionally, each person's equipment (and technique to some extend) will affect the extraction from the hops. For example, my early recipes did not get enough bitterness in them because I did not get a strong enough boil in a big pot on my stove.

So really you just need to keep adjusting your recipe, and evolve it to suit your tastes.

I would perhaps double up the Cascade at flame out, and take a little off the 60m Chinook addition to lower the bitterness. Also take a look at adding gypsum, as supposedly that helps the hops stand out.

Good luck!

[BrewBoyJoe]

Hey Jocky,
Thanks for giving my ramblings the once over. I must have posted this in the wrong forum as my beer is grain recipe. I will repost. I used crushed maris otter and brewed it to 4.5% (no speciality grains as per the info I could find on the recipe.. see above notes). In answer to your question, the beer was overly bitter, and quite a harsh bitterness. I'm doing it a bit of a disservice because I do like it, and the bitterness was balanced out to a certain extent by the dry hop, carbonation, and other hop flavours! However, the Wild river original feels more of a hop bomb! The citrusy flavor does not come across in mine and its really prominent in the original!

Subsequent to my first clone attempt with the previously mentioned hop bill, I calculated the bitterness units using http://www.realbeer.com/hops/research.html This app incorporates quite a lot of factors other equations do not consider, such as the wort gravity in the boil. Reading the blurb, he seems quite thorough. I appreciate utilization is somewhat arbitrary based on your individual set up, and a bit of a black art in general, but I guess you have to start somewhere!

So here is a redo of the recipe. Please let me know what you think. BTW, before I brewed with the above hop bill the first time, I was warned off using Chinook for the harsh bitterness. These are warnings I perhaps should have headed. I have taken this down from one oz to 0.3 in the redo

Bittering
Chinook, alpha 13.8%, boil time 60 minutes, 0.3oz, utilization % 25, bittering units 14
Liberty, alpha 5.9%, boil time 60 minutes, 0.75oz, utilization % 23, bittering units 15
Flavour
Wilmallette, alpha 6.3, boil time 30 minutes, utilization % 18, bittering units 17
Aeroma
Liberty, alpha 5.9, boil time 10 minutes, utilization % 8, bittering units 5
Total bittering units = 51 as stated by fullers!
As suggested I may double up on the cascade to 1oz at flame out (well I add mine at 80 degrees).
I’ll dry hop with perhaps 2 oz of Chinook as I loved what it did last time (17 days with 1 oz) at room temp in London!

Slightly concerned about doubling up on the cascade because of the comments from the brewer.

The four hops are Cascade, Chinook, Liberty and Willamette from the West Coast of the United States. They are added at different stages of the copper boil and also in the fermenting vessel. John Keeling says he uses Cascade sparingly as a result of its extreme bitterness and citrus character: “I use a lot of Liberty as they are more subtle. I use just pale malt as that allows the hops to shine through.”

Comments please. What do you think of my hop bill.

Cheers

Joe

[BrewBoyJoe]

Reposted at

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55007&p=578415#p578415

[BrewBoyJoe]

Reposted at

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55007&p=578415#p578415

[Jocky]

It's really difficult to tell without tasting your beer, and even then, the mixture of hops is tricky. Cascade is a big flavour hop, but given all that you've said I don't think that doubling it up at flame out is going to kill your beer. And you may find adding them at flame out instead of 80 degrees will help.

In any case, your adjustments will certainly give you something different though, and maybe get you closer to what you want.

Another thought would be to dry hop with pellet hops. As pellets break up more of their oils are extracted than from dried leaf.

[BrewBoyJoe]

Well I've already bough the leaf hops so will have to use those. I will maybe add some cascade in addition to the chinook to the dry hop.

Last time for the post boil hops, I couldn't really taste them when I added at 80, so I may add at flame out. I don't know if doubling up as well would be the way to go! I need to think on this. It may radically transform the beer! See how daring I feel on the day.

Also, I will use WLP002 for my main 27 litre batch and wlp001 for 1 or 2 glass demi 1 gallons. The wlp002 may take the edge off the hops so doubling up could be the way to go!