Watery Thin beer - 2 attempts at BIAB, sad face

[pobrien20]

Help, after a dozen or so Coopers & St Peters kits (all dme or lme) which worked well, all more or less improved with age & additional hops, I then moved to extract. Two attempts a Pilsner & an IPA, both bloomin' marvellous, if I do say myself, fresh, hoppy & delicious.

Thought, I've got most of the gear, I'll try BIAB (well maxi BIAB anyway, with 23l Stockpot).

Read a bit here & there on interweb, got principles so I thought;

tried two versions a redish ale & a bitter, both approx 4.3%; followed similar instructions for both, monitored & maintained mash temps for 90 mins (1st one Red Ale 67C & bitter 68C - using 2 thermometers, one digital recently calibrated, both reading t 1/2 degree of each other).

Boiled, added hops, chilled, pitched (S-04 & US-05 for 2 brew), fermented as per usual.

Bottled after 10-12 days (3 hydro readings the same), primed 1tsp per 500ml bottle (a bit high for an ale, but normally fine), kept at room temp (15-20C)for 2 weeks, at least a week in cool shed before cracking first one.

Very disappointed, low carbonation in beer, although cap hiss present & worse of all very low body feel to it - very confused, taste of beer fine (just need to play with balance of hops for style, balance not bad) but there is very little body to it.

Taste from FV before bottling was fine, change after 3-4 weeks due to improvement losing its greenness.

Any suggestions to improve body for next brew? I used Carapils, Carared at 5-14%, Crystal at 9% of grain bill with remainder 75-80% Marris Otter, all freshly crushed from good LBS.

[john_drummer]

Very disappointed, low carbonation in beer, although cap hiss present & worse of all very low body feel to it - very confused, taste of beer fine* (just need to play with balance of hops for style, balance not bad) but there is very little body to it.

* this is the key statement - it sounds like you haven't used enough sugar when priming, or maybe not had it warm/long enough after priming. How much sugar did you prime the bottles with?

Move them back into the warm for a couple more weeks, then try one. if it's still not carbonated, you might need to reprime

[tractorboy]

Can you post you recipe and volumes etc?

My 1st BIAB is a bit thin but makes a nice session beer; I used far too much water.

Bob

[mrmojorisin]

Maybe play around a bit with your malts? My first BIAB had 250g Munich, 300g crystal and 200g wheat malt, using us-05 and even though my mash was only 60 mins and my efficiency low it still has plenty of mouth feel and body. Will put your recipe in my brew calculator and have a bit of a play.

Just a thought, but is maxi-BIAB where you brew a smaller amount then add water to make up to volume or is it something else?

*edit* actually, knowing the weights and volumes used would help I think.

[jonnyt]

I reckon it's your efficiency being low 65% or less which is entirely normal for bog standard BIAB.

What where the hydrometer readings for the wort? Or as I suspect you didn't take any? What were they when you bottled / casked?

I'd add 10% to 15% more grain next time,

[RdeV]

pobrien20, we really need more details to assist, so the OG, FG, volumes and recipe masses (not proportions) and maybe tell us about your water too, however initially it sounds quite simply that carbonation is incomplete, that can lead to a sense of thinness although usually with slight accompanying sweetness due to small amount of unfermented sugar. Some profound changes can and do take place through carbonation and conditioning, usually beneficial, perhaps this batch is just being recalcitrant- that can happen now and then.

mrmojorisin, you're on the right track, MaxiBIAB is the use of a mash tun/ kettle with a limited volume to brew more beer than would ordinarily be possible by conventional BIAB methods with that kettle and achieves this through a sparge step and post- boil dilution. Here's the MaxiBIAB Guide (registration not required) I developed*, using a cheap (A$20) 19L stainless stockpot for 23- 25L in the fermenter is the most common implementation. Its a very cheap and simple means to try an all grain method at full scale, i.e. filling a cornie + a few bottles in one brewday as opposed to two conventional BIABs. Sometimes it is used as a stepping stone to conventional mashing, sometimes not.
* BTW. Post 6 in the MaxiBIAB guide has an error, it should be:
Post-boil Specific Gravity / Target Specific Gravity * Post-boil Volume = Diluted Volume

[mrmojorisin]

Cheers rdev, so we definitely need more info, pre dilution and post dilution gravitys are going to be important. Sounds like you could have a problem with efficiency or that conditioning is not complete, I've recently made a brew (kit) that was very thin, but given a few weeks in the bottle has improved considerably.

[pobrien20]

Thanks for replies, here is the break down for the 1st one, a Red Ale:

This was made up to 16L into the fermenter.

2.00 kg Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (5.9 EBC) Grain 73.5 %
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (113.0 EBC) Grain 9.2 %
0.25 kg Carared (39.4 EBC) Grain 9.2 %
0.14 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine (3.0 EBC) Grain 5.1 %
0.08 kg Chocolate Malt (500.0 EBC) Grain 2.9 %
8.0 g Northdown [8.90 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 11.0 IBUs
5.0 g East Kent Goldings [5.60 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4.3 IBUs
5.0 g East Kent Goldings [5.60 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 2.6 IBUs
1 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining
3.0 g East Kent Goldings [5.60 %] - Aroma Steep 10.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)
---
Water Profile
Calcium: 13.00 ppm
Sulfate: 13.00 ppm
Magnesium: 2.00 ppm
Chloride: 13.00 ppm
Sodium: 8.00 ppm
Bicarbonate: 50.00 ppm
PH: 8.00
---
Measured Original Gravity: 1.043 SG
Measured Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.1 %
Bitterness: 17.9 IBUs
Calories: 401.4 kcal/l
Est Color: 23.9 EBC
---
Mashed at 67C for 90 mins
Wort boiled for 15min before hops added, as above.

Fermented at 20C for 13 days
Bottled in 500ml Coopers PET bottles, primed Brewing Sugar at 1tsp per bottle.

Stored for 14 days at 18c, then into shed, first real sample taken after approx 4 weeks in bottle. Hydro & bottling samples suggested taste was ok (smelt like beer, tasted of beer, looked like beer ... must be beer)

After first few kits learned not to taste beer until it was at least 4-6 weeks in bottle as it changes a lot over that time so was expecting it to be better than first bottle. I may leave for a few more weeks. I tried a 2nd bottle at weekend which hadn't been chilled as much (first few samples were put in fridge for a day or two, then taken out of fridge for 15 mins before serving) & this one was a bit better.

It had visible carbonation while drinking down through it, body felt slightly improved but very little head & head retention.

Once again appreciate responses.

[RdeV]

Nothing immediately stands out as wrong (you got wort after all!), however its quite a high efficiency at 89%, so are you quite sure of your volumes? I know MaxiBIAB is indeed quite efficient though!
Are you sure the Coopers PET bottles are 500ml? I thought they were 740ml, at least they are here in Aus. If your priming rate has been OK for these bottles in the past though then it should be fine, however if they're actually 740ml bottles therein may lie the answer to low carbonation. Eventually it might scrape through though- I find with low carbonation after a month of conditioning that the next month or two improves things, the yeast must eventually wring the last stubborn point or two out of the bottled beer.
Anyway, hope this is helps!

[kebabman]

What kind of % dilutions are you guys carrying out?
I don't wish to appear rude but isn't the fact that you dilute with water always going to make watery tasting beer if the % dilution is significant.
Surely for the cost of an undersized boiling pot you could buy or build a full sized plastic copper/boiler?
I started homebrewing many years ago using the Dave Line method of 1 plastic boiler, 1 grain bag and 2 plastic buckets, one with a tap and this has done me proud for years.

[RdeV]

What kind of % dilutions are you guys carrying out?
I don't wish to appear rude but isn't the fact that you dilute with water always going to make watery tasting beer if the % dilution is significant.
Surely for the cost of an undersized boiling pot you could buy or build a full sized plastic copper/boiler?
I started homebrewing many years ago using the Dave Line method of 1 plastic boiler, 1 grain bag and 2 plastic buckets, one with a tap and this has done me proud for years.

Yeah, the late great Dave Line to whom we all owe a great deal came so close to skewering single- vessel BIAB over 20 years ago except that he decided to use a grain bag that had canvas and largely impermeable sides and thence saw fit to lauter in another vessel. That's a whole other issue though...
As far as dilution goes, MaxiBIAB just dilutes concentrated wort, that's not an unheard of practice in the commercial/ non- hobby setting. FWIW, the proportions are roughly 25% water, 75% concentrated wort, but after about three years of competitive brewing my trophy cabinet would lead me to believe it is not in itself a bad practice- as best I can recall seldom if ever has feedback/ judges remarks been along the lines of thin or watery. I suspect there's another issue at play here for the OP, it isn't to do with MaxiBIAB dilution although at first glance it could appear so, but it is more likely to be undercarbonated, unintentionally mis- measured or just in the semantics.
One of the features of MaxiBIAB is that it is pretty much the lowest- risk, full- sized (i.e. 23L brewlength), all- grain method, novice brewers can give it a try without dropping a load of cash on systems which completely empty the disposables account in one fell swoop, so I recommend it to folks who are somewhat keen to give all- grain a whirl but not 100% sure if it suits them- it costs less than A$50 to try and most often can be done with some household/ domestic equipment which is in the pantry or laundry already.

[kebabman]

Thanks for the explanation regarding BIAB. I think Fullers parti gyle some of their beers and Courage best and directors might have been in the past too so some dilution is done commercially.
Yes I would also add weight to the idea of yours that the beer has not conditioned properly, obviously English beer should never be flat (or warm!) contrary to common misconceptions and is a lot fuller tasting when properly conditioned.

[BazC]

If you think about it diluting the wort before fermenting is no different to what is done with Extract brews. Provided the OG is correct for the style of beer there's no reason why it should be thin or watery.

[pobrien20]

The Coopers PET bottles are the 500ml size, the 1tsp of sugar has been my normal priming rate (even for my UK style ales, this would normally be considered a high rate for the style).

It looks like I'll just have to add more patience & time to see how they progress/condition.

It means I'll have to experiment on the next few batches (might keep them smaller, to the 16L size) and make more beer & then taste it (oh damn).

Anyway it's the way to learn & the grain is way cheaper compared to extract - it will allow me to get it right over time.

Tough having to make & try all these new beers ...

Thanks for the advice again

[Valley Commando]

I reckon your grain bill is a little low for 16L into the fermenter. I do full length BIAB and have settled at 4.5-5kg of grain giving 26L into the FV, you have less grain per litre of liquor. Now if you have a very efficient mash that may be OK, but my guess is your mash is likely to be average, same as mine (Biab methods considered to have lower efficiency mash than 3V as a rule of thumb.)

So either up the grain bill, or reduce your dilution and you should have a higher OG wort to work with which will likely give a less watery result. Oh and allow plenty of conditioning time as the others said, CO2 is a huge mouthfeel component!