Ro or tap

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:02 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:12 pm
… it's an Excel spreadsheet, but might also work in the free Google Sheets application though I've not tried it)…
From "the horse's mouth":
Bru'n Water is an Excel application. If you don't have Excel installed on your computer, LibreOffice software is a freeware program that will allow you to run Bru'n Water.

You can download LibreOffice from the following website: http://www.libreoffice.org/

ALERT: Bru'n Water can also be opened using Google Docs, but the formatting of the program is affected and some display information is lost. Although Bru'n Water does appear to operate in Google Docs, LibreOffice or OpenOffice are recommended over Google Docs for operating Bru'n Water. Of course, a recent version of Excel is the preferred program for Bru'n Water operation.
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Silver_Is_Money
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:16 pm

If you click on my 'Silver_Is_Money" username and search my profile you will see that I am the developer of a mash pH assistant software package. Mine is available via a free download, and my spreadsheet is both free and complete. It comes in a US units of measurement version and also in a completely Metric version. There is no scaled back teaser of my spreadsheet leading to a need to pay me to receive a full version. It comes with a bunch of useful utilities also. I'm trying not to sound like an advertiser here and upset the moderators. I hope I have not crossed a line already in posting this.

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:49 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:16 pm
If you click on my 'Silver_Is_Money" username and search my profile you will see that I am the developer of a mash pH assistant software package. …
Got it! I'll be giving it a going over soon. Can't imagine you'll upset the administrators or moderators 'cos it's free. Unless it has links to pay-for stuff within it? …

You are sticking your neck out though. Forumites on here make a fine sport of giving Martin B. (Bru'n Water) a hard time. Are you putting yourself up as an alternative target?

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:54 pm

No pay links.

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:24 am

I haven't heard from "Brown Beer" about a joint brewing session (I've probably scared him off?) so I'll go it alone. This will put "Silver_is_Money's" water calculator head-to-head with "Bru'n Water" … In the right corner:
Melyn MME.JPG
… and in the left corner we have:
Melyn BW.JPG
I've never used acid to fiddle with mash pH before. so that will be interesting. "Bru'n Water" has a pleasanter user interface than "Mash Made Easy", but "MME" is young and that might change? The quantities of brewing salts is very similar as should be expected. I was at a bit of a loss with "MME" because it doesn't include "Magnesium Chloride" which has become a firm favourite with me, but I shuffled the salts to use "Magnesium Sulphate" to maintain a level playing field. The water profile I'm copying is BW's "Yellow, dry" one - a low mineralised "American" style for an American style beer. Rather than a highly mineralised UK type profile for a more characterful British style "Real Ale" beer (that'll get me some hate posts!).

I'm using "imaginary" anhydrous Calcium Chloride; I must change to "liquid" CaCl2 additions, and both calculators accommodate it.

The big difference between the calculators is mash pH prediction. I've jiggled the amount of acid additions to be the same but BW predicts pH 5.26 whereas MME has been asked to get pH 5.35. This time I've more faith in MME because BW has been predicting way too low recently (hasn't always been the case, and in 2018 I always had mash pH come out 4.9 - 5.2 but they were mucking about with the water treatment works I find out later).

Next the recipe builder (I'm using Beersmith). Note the beer's name? "Melyn" ("Mel-un" if you like) is Welsh for "Blonde". Remember, I'm "emulating" the BIAB method, and you see "low alcohol" a lot because it's my "low alcohol" fermenting method I'm testing out with an "average alcohol" content beer:
Melyn BS.JPG
It'll take me a few days to collect the ingredients together (I don't keep a stock of these "lager" type ingredients). The place name for my water doesn't give away where I live, (Llandychmygol); it's a joke (ask a Welshman).

<1600: Edited for typing slip ups>
Attachments
Melyn MME.JPG
Melyn BS.JPG
Melyn BW.JPG
Last edited by PeeBee on Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:42 am

Excuse the repeat images in the last post: Trying to edit a picture posted in this forum is really pox!

Brown beer
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:21 pm

I've sent off the water sample today. I'll post results when I get them and see where we go from there...

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:35 pm

Hi "Brown Beer". I've been doing a bit of comparison of your water with much of the rest of Wales, and whereas I had said it was similar, yours is marginally higher in alkalinity. You sit on the same ancient rocks, but wind blown dust from the nearby limestone area does seem to influence your water (being surface water and picking stuff up from soil rather than bed rock). You can see this from pictures. First my reservoir on acid moorland:
alwen reservoir.JPG
And then your water reservoir surrounded by fields and "more productive" alkaline soils:
llysyfran reservoir.JPG
llysyfran reservoir.JPG (29.13 KiB) Viewed 106 times
But compared to stuff in the S. of England, our water is much the same and got "nowt" in it!

This information has very little to do with the subject, but I find it interesting generally, as might someone else?

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Eric
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:52 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:21 pm
I've sent off the water sample today. I'll post results when I get them and see where we go from there...
Did you keep a sample of the water you sent for yourself?

For PeeBee, I notice you have spent time on the British Geological Survey website, but did you come across this page?

It takes a bit of driving, but holds quite a lot of detail.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:20 pm

Wwwooowww! Pretty!

Though I do prefer the more "summarised" maps 'cos I don't stand a hope in hell of making clueless "sweeping statements" from that.

Silver_Is_Money
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:42 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:42 am
Excuse the repeat images in the last post: Trying to edit a picture posted in this forum is really pox!
PeeBee, it seems that in Mash Made Easy you have forgotten to set the "Base Malt DI_pH Selector" drop down cell (lower right) to a compromise setting falling between your two base malts. Since this feature is unique to MME, this critical setting is commonly overlooked by those first using it. If a suitable compromise can't be settled upon so as to relatively average between the characteristics of your two base malts, then enter manual deionized water mash pH values into the manual override column for both base malts. This option is useful for those who actually test their lots of base malt for deionized water mash pH. And ditto for all other grist malts, unmalted grains, flakes, etc... As the old saying goes, if you don't know where you are, it's much harder to get where you're going. For the case of not knowing the actual deionized mash pH values for each component of the grist, you are forcing the software to make guesses for you that may not be correct for your individual lots of malts. Follow the color coding seen within the "Key" to find all of the user adjustable cells. Mash Made Easy is highly end user adjustable so as to adjust it to match your actual mash pH monitoring experience.

Also, I've been working hard on improving it it, and I just advanced MME to version 8.30 as of today. It's always best to use the latest version if/when possible.

Did you notice how with MME you didn't have to "hunt and peck" to find mash pH solutions as for BW? That's one of the "easy" features. Another is that you enter minerals at full gram quantity rather than in often quite difficult to juggle units of grams per liter or grams per gallon. Another is that you don't tell MME how much acid or base to add to move the software toward your chosen mash pH target, but rather it tells you. Isn't that why people use such software to begin with?

PS: I've tested several lots of CaCl2 in my day, and it has been my experience that it is never anhydrous. 94%-96% pure when first opened is about as good as it gets, and it goes down hill from there as it absorbs moisture from contact with air.

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Eric
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:55 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:42 pm
I've tested several lots of CaCl2 in my day, and it has been my experience that it is never anhydrous. 94%-96% pure when first opened is about as good as it gets, and it goes down hill from there as it absorbs moisture from contact with air.
Put calcium chloride flakes in the oven at 150C until they heat through, then weigh, package and mark them in small quantities before returning them to their container.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:02 am

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:42 pm
PeeBee wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:42 am
Excuse the repeat images in the last post: Trying to edit a picture posted in this forum is really pox!
PeeBee, it seems that in Mash Made Easy you have forgotten to set the "Base Malt DI_pH Selector" drop down cell (lower right) to a compromise setting falling between your two base malts. …
Humm. At a guess I think you are talking to other readers to undo the damage I've inadvertently done with my scribblings? I have recognised the "DI_pH" stuff to be a fabulous method to customise and fine tune the tool's inner workings, something wholly missing in BW. But I'm only just getting to grips with the "Base Malt DI_pH" customising and hadn't suspected you were to select a "compromised setting". At first I thought the tool had a dire lack of explanation, but I am beginning to suspect that I'm missing out on some context help 'cos I'm running it on Microsoft's Excel?

My line you've quoted has nothing to do with MME by-the-way; it was aimed at the forum administrators as I'm griping about an annoying feature of the forum's workings.

But to turn a bit of criticism back your way: "DI_pH"? "DI_pH" may be an excellent means of tweaking the tool, but it's also an excellent example of why you don't give clever geeks the job of creating user interfaces! "DI_pH" (just the abbreviation, not what it means) is quite enough to scare the pants off most intended users and have them run for the hills to stick their heads in a bucket of water. I'm immune, 'cos my head's always in a "bucket of water" (my "bucket" probably contains worse than just water too).

Silver_Is_Money
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:20 am

As to base malt DI_pH (deionized mash pH, or the pH you will typically measure if you mash a grist of 100% of a single base malt in 100% deionized water with zero minerals added, or alternately in distilled water) compromise, there isn't much (if any) typically found difference in the DI_pH between your two chosen base malts, so you don't need to compromise after all, and you can select "Pale, Vienna, 5.65" via the drop-down to assign a DI_pH of 5.65 to both of your base malts. As seen in your snapshots above, you had your base malts set to "Pilsner", with it default assigned 5.80 DI_pH. A base malt with a DI_pH of 5.80 is inherently much less acidic than a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.65.

It's OK to visualize DI_pH either as a malts measured deionized water mash pH, or alternately as its distilled water mash pH. DI identifies well with either water type by name, and both waters are similar in nature with regard to being highly devoid of minerals and alkalinity.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Heron1952 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:09 am

Interesting MME spreadsheet, sadly no CRS or AMS or H2SO4 or HCl acid additions. That's in common with many water calculators. Those acids would all affect the critical sulphate and chloride balance, not just alkalinity
aka Rhys

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