clearing beer

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7122
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: clearing beer

Post by orlando » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:34 pm

Is the clarity what you want? Calcium won't deal with any lack of body. Better to look at the grain bill and mash temp.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Sad Old Red (Flanders Red Ale for barrel ageing project)
Conditioning: Hunter (Tally Ho Clone) till December,
Drinking: Agent Orange (English Wheat Beer), Southwold Again (V3), Pilgrim, From Russia With Love (RIS), He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy)

Up Next:
Planning: Spring drinking Beer

Galena
Steady Drinker
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Location: Peak District Derbyshire, nearest breweries: Taddington, Whim, Peak Ales, Thornbridge, Buxton

Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:43 pm

Galena wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:25 pm
orlando wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:18 pm
Even Lagers benefit from higher levels. I'm reliably informed by a member of this forum who has actually visited Czech Lager brewers that they add a lot of calcium. You would have to start with a lot of calcium to have levels over 200ppm in the final Beer, is that what he means? Water over here is naturally nowhere near that level without adding it. I'm sure Eric can confirm.
Interesting, my tap water is only 15ppm calcium. I brewed a Czech Pilsner with no additions, the finished beer is very nice though perhaps a bit thin. Next time I shall try an increased level.
Clarity was not an issue
Palmer says with regards Calcium " Beers taste watery without it"

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7122
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: clearing beer

Post by orlando » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:55 pm

Does he? Never brewed without it so don't know.
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Sad Old Red (Flanders Red Ale for barrel ageing project)
Conditioning: Hunter (Tally Ho Clone) till December,
Drinking: Agent Orange (English Wheat Beer), Southwold Again (V3), Pilgrim, From Russia With Love (RIS), He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy)

Up Next:
Planning: Spring drinking Beer

McMullan
Under the Table
Posts: 1191
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 7:48 pm
Location: Here

Re: clearing beer

Post by McMullan » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:45 pm

Galena wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:04 pm
orlando wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:19 pm
Typically they complain about "minerality", I don't what that is or means. As a result they "recommend" 50ppm of Calcium. Calcium is arguably the most important factor in mash chemistry, along with alkalinity. What is not taken into account is the amount of calcium that is lost in the mash. Recently I have noticed a change, 100ppm is more likely to be seen as a recommendation. The biggest influencer with this is people using Brunwater, that has red flags for when you go over the limits prescribed. My guess is the influence of Lager brewing and the palate that has developed over there.
Ahh, yes I see what you mean though to be honest, having been a disciple of John Palmer his recommendations for Calcium are " 50 -200 ppm, 50 for lagers and light ales, 100-150 for good mash lauter and pH stability, but may be too robust for some light lagers. Levels in excess of 200ppm tend to taste minerally" I was half aware that UK brewers considered more calcium as beneficial but couldn't relate as Palmers levels seem okay to me.
John Palmer's an American living and brewing in America, with American geology, American water and American taste(s) in beer. Let's use the phrase 'taste' loosely here. Very loosely. The 'more-the-better brigade' has exhausted itself enough already. If you frame matters in their most basic form, it's often the question itself that's confusing these days. An outcome of ignorance. A spoon-fed society of online experts that seem to know surprisingly f*ck all :? If you're really interested in brewing English ales, things like water chemistry were largely resolved by brewing scientists who enjoyed English ales in England a very long time ago. Almost 100 years ago, in fact. Odd how such world-renowned experts like Palmer managed to completely miss the historical literature on the subject. Especially when offering advice on Brewing English ales :roll:

Galena
Steady Drinker
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Location: Peak District Derbyshire, nearest breweries: Taddington, Whim, Peak Ales, Thornbridge, Buxton

Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm

If you're really interested in brewing English ales
Thats pretty much all I am interested to be honest, I guess the Americans have been more vocal about it and they are the books that get adopted as Bibles, they are easily accessible without trawling through countless research papers.

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7122
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: clearing beer

Post by orlando » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:22 am

Galena wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm
If you're really interested in brewing English ales
Thats pretty much all I am interested to be honest, I guess the Americans have been more vocal about it and they are the books that get adopted as Bibles, they are easily accessible without trawling through countless research papers.
In one. =D> But to be fair, they are now at the leading edge of research in brewing and innovation. For that I applaud them, just irks me they are not so good on history. :D
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Sad Old Red (Flanders Red Ale for barrel ageing project)
Conditioning: Hunter (Tally Ho Clone) till December,
Drinking: Agent Orange (English Wheat Beer), Southwold Again (V3), Pilgrim, From Russia With Love (RIS), He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy)

Up Next:
Planning: Spring drinking Beer

User avatar
IPA
Under the Table
Posts: 1356
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:29 am
Location: France Gascony

Re: clearing beer

Post by IPA » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:10 am

Start by getting your water analysed. Wallybrew on this forum will do it for you for a very reasonable price. Don't be tempted to use the one issued by your local water company.
Then use Graham Wheeler's water calculator also on this forum.
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
Once you have done this you can then start using fining agents to clarify your beer.
A member on here ( Gray's Alchemy) gave sound advice when he said " If you want clear beer coming out you need to have clear beer going in"
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dean Martin

1. Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"

Galena
Steady Drinker
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Location: Peak District Derbyshire, nearest breweries: Taddington, Whim, Peak Ales, Thornbridge, Buxton

Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:33 am

IPA wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:10 am
Start by getting your water analysed. Wallybrew on this forum will do it for you for a very reasonable price. Don't be tempted to use the one issued by your local water company.
Then use Graham Wheeler's water calculator also on this forum.
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html
Once you have done this you can then start using fining agents to clarify your beer.
A member on here ( Gray's Alchemy) gave sound advice when he said " If you want clear beer coming out you need to have clear beer going in"
If that was to me, thank you though I have been treating my water for some time now and consider I have a fairly good understanding of it now though it has taken a while and even though some of that understanding inevitably has an American slant. I have used Wallybrew so all good. The purpose of my hijacking of this thread was to query the comments about ignoring US advice.

Galena
Steady Drinker
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Location: Peak District Derbyshire, nearest breweries: Taddington, Whim, Peak Ales, Thornbridge, Buxton

Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:34 am

orlando wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:22 am
Galena wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm
If you're really interested in brewing English ales
Thats pretty much all I am interested to be honest, I guess the Americans have been more vocal about it and they are the books that get adopted as Bibles, they are easily accessible without trawling through countless research papers.
In one. =D> But to be fair, they are now at the leading edge of research in brewing and innovation. For that I applaud them, just irks me they are not so good on history. :D
To be fair they are pretty good at revisionist history :D

User avatar
orlando
So far gone I'm on the way back again!
Posts: 7122
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:22 pm
Location: North Norfolk: Nearest breweries All Day Brewery, Salle. Panther, Reepham. Yetman's, Holt

Re: clearing beer

Post by orlando » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:51 am

Galena wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:34 am
orlando wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:22 am
Galena wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:29 pm

Thats pretty much all I am interested to be honest, I guess the Americans have been more vocal about it and they are the books that get adopted as Bibles, they are easily accessible without trawling through countless research papers.
In one. =D> But to be fair, they are now at the leading edge of research in brewing and innovation. For that I applaud them, just irks me they are not so good on history. :D
To be fair they are pretty good at revisionist history :D
Like the scene showing the Americans capturing the first Enigma machine in the film of the same name. :lol:
I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Sad Old Red (Flanders Red Ale for barrel ageing project)
Conditioning: Hunter (Tally Ho Clone) till December,
Drinking: Agent Orange (English Wheat Beer), Southwold Again (V3), Pilgrim, From Russia With Love (RIS), He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother (Wee Heavy)

Up Next:
Planning: Spring drinking Beer

Galena
Steady Drinker
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Location: Peak District Derbyshire, nearest breweries: Taddington, Whim, Peak Ales, Thornbridge, Buxton

Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:02 pm

orlando wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:51 am


Like the scene showing the Americans capturing the first Enigma machine in the film of the same name. :lol:
yes there record with war films is quite shameful, like the Americans single handedly invading France on D-Day in Saving Private Ryan (much though I love that film)
An American leading the escape in The Great Escape
Errol Flynn winning the war in Burma when here was no American involvement there at all

User avatar
Eric
Even further under the Table
Posts: 2313
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:18 am
Location: Sunderland.

Re: clearing beer

Post by Eric » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:43 pm

By observation, it would seem clearing beer is now not so fashionable or essential. Why is that? I was raised to expect beer to be clear and never to accept any that wasn't. Might declarations by self-proclaimed brewing experts that malt contains all necessary calcium and pH prediction software enables every other aspect of brewing to be ignored, caught the remaining traditional commercial brewers off-guard?

Before 1963 a licence was required to brew beer in Britain, but no such restriction had applied to wine, so winemakers led the way to brewing beer in UK. The outcome wasn't good, being one of the many who followed the winemakers I can testify to that, but in time produced some drinkable beers, although nothing like the pint down the pub.

Next came keg beer, pseudo lagers and CAMRA, causing miles of travel to find a pint better than my own. So with many others, the desire to brew better beer began in earnest when there were no digital displays, no cheap stainless steels, no pH meters outside of laboratories and a total lack of other equipment that we now take for granted. When cask beer began a revival, knowledge of water treatment and necessary procedures became more widely understood, but as the internet spread that knowledge, it mixed with different ideals from different places.

So what is next? Are we in Britain permanently transfixed to drinking opaque beer hopped to kingdom come? They have the advantage that water treatment won't matter to anywhere like the degree necessary to produce a crystal clear ale that the imbiber can determine the full array of flavours from malt and hop. I think a potential change will come with the move to lower alcohol beers. Beers in UK have been low in alcohol due to wars and taxation, and Ron Pattinson's blog has a strong following in America that in time might change brewing ideas there. Of course, if that does happen, we'll still be told they did it first.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

User avatar
IPA
Under the Table
Posts: 1356
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:29 am
Location: France Gascony

Re: clearing beer

Post by IPA » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:04 am

Very eloquently phrased as usual Eric.
With regard to cloudy hop soup we have a local brewery that proudly proclaims their beer as "Naturellement Trouble".
Translated that means cloudy by intention or more to the point I dont think they are capable of producing bright beer.
Also they produce four or five beers of various colours that all taste the same.
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." Dean Martin

1. Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"

Galena
Steady Drinker
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Location: Peak District Derbyshire, nearest breweries: Taddington, Whim, Peak Ales, Thornbridge, Buxton

Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:56 am

Of course, if that does happen, we'll still be told they did it first.
=D> So true

Galena
Steady Drinker
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 7:42 pm
Location: Peak District Derbyshire, nearest breweries: Taddington, Whim, Peak Ales, Thornbridge, Buxton

Re: clearing beer

Post by Galena » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:59 am

Also they produce four or five beers of various colours that all taste the same.
There is a brewery near to us that seems to me that all the pale beers seem to taste the same and I thought that they probably have a standard formula brew that they just tweek a bit for diffrent beers, a bit like a curry house that has 50 different curries on the menu but they are all adjusted from one or two base sauces.

Post Reply