Full mash/Small boiler

[soupdragon]

Hi all

Just started drinking my 1st go at a full mash. My usual method is a partial mash/partial boil and top up with malt extract and water in the F/V.
First off I have to say that because of my limited boil capacity ( 15 litre stock pot ) I couldn't really sparge all the sugars out of the grain so my extraction was rather low. The way I work it out ( probably wrong ) is to do the brew, top off to 5 gallons and see what the O.G. is then. I've been getting 75/80 % with my partial mashes but this one was way down at 58 %. That's something I can work on in the future though
My main reason for this post is just to say to people who do partial mashes ( like me ) is that the jump in quality from using extract to FULL grain is well worth the effort. I've been doing about 50/50 grain/extract and all my beers have had a similar flavour regardless of hop type used ( Chinook/Amarillo or Fuggles ) but this trial has opened my eyes. Now all I have to do is squeeze a bit more out of my grain and I'll be happy. Getting a bigger boiler and wort chiller isn't an option at the moment so I've got to work with my trusty 15 litre pot.

Cheers Tom

[Beer O'Clock]

Good news Soupy. The flavour difference is certainly pronounced. I found all my Extract brews had a very similar flavour so switched to full BIAB.

I assume you have checked out Mini-BIAB here http://www.biabrewer.info/viewforum.php?f=23. You should be getting better efficiency than you state. But good stuff anyway.

Well done and welcome to the Dark Side BIAB stylee.

[soupdragon]

Hi Beer

I've read both the mini and maxi method guides. I'm happy with the extraction I've been getting when I BIAB to get the 1st half of my partial's ( 75 %+ ). Usually use about 2kg of grain, mash and batch sparge to collect around 15 litres but for the full mash trial I used 4.5 kg. With my 15 litre pot there's no way that even the maxi method would work. I think that's based on a 19 litre pot, if I remember rightly........
I mashed with about 12 litres of water and after 90 mins I topped up the mash with 5 litres of boiling water as some sort of mash out/sparge thing. I think that next time I'll drop the grain/water ratio to 2.5 then drain the grain before adding about 7 litres of sparge. I think that " should " get me up to 65 %. The only other thing I can think of is to sparge till I've got 25-30 litres or so and split the boil

Cheers Tom

[Beer O'Clock]

Hi Tom

To be honest, as I do full BIAB, I have never read the mini/maxi section. I suggested it as it might have given you some ideas. It looks like you have it sussed anyway.

Try posting on their site for more in-depth advice. Or wait until the Antipodeans log on here.

Still, the main thing is you're making beer. And regardless of efficiency, providing all the standard sanitary rules are applied, you will make GOOD beer.

[soupdragon]

I must admit that even doing partial's, the quality of the beer is a mile away from kits. I was thinking of doing a split boil a while ago, now I know that the results from all grain are much better I'm really tempted to give it a go. One other thing I was thinking about was using my 1st runnings as my main boil ( bittering hops ) then boiling the sparge separately for a shorter time with just the flavour hops while the 1st part is cooling????

Cheers Tom

[RdeV]

Hi soupy, glad to hear you're happy with your first all- grain!
I'm not quite sure where the problem lies, are you lifting and draining the bag before adding the sparge? If not, that's likely to be your problem.

This is what I'd be doing in your 15L pot for Maxi-BIAB:
Mash: Mash up to 4kg of grain with the pot full to the brim and leave it for 90 minutes, make sure your water has enough calcium, formulate it with the water chemistry spreadsheet/ apps if you like, but I'd suggest treating all of the water, not just the mash. Draining the mash need not be excessive, most of the sugars left in it will be sparged out in the next step anyway.
Sparge: Dunk sparge in a bucket, so put 2L of hot water in a 10L bucket, drop in your briefly- drained bag of wet grain, top up the bucket with near- boiling water and stir well over 10 minutes and lift bag to drain. Do that once, repeat if sparge runnings SG is >1.020. It may also help to acidify sparge water with a 1/2 teaspoon of citric acid or similar in 4L, particularly if your source water is alkaline.
Boil: Add sparge liquor to boil, all of it may not fit in the beginning, just add excess sparge to the boil to replace evaporation, but no later than 15 mins from boil end.
Dilute: Get a sample just as the boil finishes, cool and measure SG, as per the Maxi-BIAB guide, this formula is usually good enough:
Postboil Specific Gravity / Target Specific Gravity * Postboil Concentration = Diluted Volume
(For this formula a Specific Gravity such as 1.055 is expressed as 55)
Required Amount of Water = Diluted Volume – Actual Wort Volume
You might be able to squeeze out 20- odd litres diluted in the fermenter I'd guess, depends on your target OG, a lower target would be more likely to succeed. One good thing about Maxi-BIAB is that you dilute to a target OG rather than just taking what you get, of course this comes at the expense of variable volume.
HTH!

[soupdragon]

Hi soupy, glad to hear you're happy with your first all- grain!
I'm not quite sure where the problem lies, are you lifting and draining the bag before adding the sparge? If not, that's likely to be your problem.

This is what I'd be doing in your 15L pot for Maxi-BIAB:
Mash: Mash up to 4kg of grain with the pot full to the brim and leave it for 90 minutes, make sure your water has enough calcium, formulate it with the water chemistry spreadsheet/ apps if you like, but I'd suggest treating all of the water, not just the mash. Draining the mash need not be excessive, most of the sugars left in it will be sparged out in the next step anyway.
Sparge: Dunk sparge in a bucket, so put 2L of hot water in a 10L bucket, drop in your briefly- drained bag of wet grain, top up the bucket with near- boiling water and stir well over 10 minutes and lift bag to drain. Do that once, repeat if sparge runnings SG is >1.020. It may also help to acidify sparge water with a 1/2 teaspoon of citric acid or similar in 4L, particularly if your source water is alkaline.
Boil: Add sparge liquor to boil, all of it may not fit in the beginning, just add excess sparge to the boil to replace evaporation, but no later than 15 mins from boil end.
Dilute: Get a sample just as the boil finishes, cool and measure SG, as per the Maxi-BIAB guide, this formula is usually good enough:
Postboil Specific Gravity / Target Specific Gravity * Postboil Concentration = Diluted Volume
(For this formula a Specific Gravity such as 1.055 is expressed as 55)
Required Amount of Water = Diluted Volume – Actual Wort Volume
You might be able to squeeze out 20- odd litres diluted in the fermenter I'd guess, depends on your target OG, a lower target would be more likely to succeed. One good thing about Maxi-BIAB is that you dilute to a target OG rather than just taking what you get, of course this comes at the expense of variable volume.
HTH!

Hi Ralph

I'll have to re read that lot once I'm properly awake but to answer your question...... No I just topped the mash up to 17 ish litres of water without draining the bag. I was trying something that I'd read on here but the next time I do it ( got more grain on order ) I'll drain the mash 1st before sparging to collect as much as I dare.
I realise that to do this properly I need a much bigger pot to boil in but unfortunately that's a no no at the moment
Our water supply is very soft so I could add half a teaspoon of gypsum to the mash and another half to the boil? How much of an improvement should that give?

Cheers Tom

[RdeV]

Yep Tom, one thing I notice with Maxi-BIAB is that completely filling the pot for the mash will usually give better results for efficiency and that's a major factor in why we're doing it this way. The process which adds a hot infusion sparge to the mash (mental block, what's it called- anybody?) before lautering may not really be that beneficial to a BIAB, you may as well do it as full volume/ stock BIAB if that's what you want to do, i.e. as a 15L Mini-BIAB.
Are you sure a new 19L pot is completely out of the question? Our large chain stores here (?Tesco, etc) have 19L stainless pots for $A20, often on special for less, so roughly the same as a batch of beer. Also, if you do track one down cheaply, your 15L jobbie would make for one excellent Maxi-BIAB sparge vessel! My own 19L pot has done 70-odd batches in a little over two years, there's no worries at all with it being fit for purpose as it is thin, stainless and has a lid and handles- just perfect for my needs! It also doubles up as a steamer for starters and slants, plus I didn't have to modify it at all and it is still useful for cooking, so its one of the most valuable and versatile pieces of equipment in my home brewery.
WRT gypsum, it really depends on what your source water is like and style of beer you're aiming for, so its a little difficult to answer concisely, the online calculators or apps are your best bet though, the EZ spreadsheet is a really helpful tool. I'd take a stab at your water (maybe the locals can assist?), make up the mash water and sparge water the same, then acidify the latter very slightly. It can be a complex business water chemistry, you Britons seem to have a much better handle on the finer details of it than us Aussies, but the main thing is that there are now simple tools to help with the brain work courtesy of other very helpful brewers. Another thing to remember is that in many cases there is no need to adjust the tap water at all, but usually brewers are trying to emphasise certain characteristics, I use rainwater so it is a given.
Oh, I meant to mention before, there's nothing at all wrong with partial mash beers, its a great means to trick up a can of malt extract (either bittered from a kit or plain, non- bittered extract) and some of my most memorable beers have been partials. It gives you at least some degree of control over the mash temperature(s) and constituents, you can then manipulate the style and the end result is usually far better than just accepting the malt extract manufacturer's decision how to mash their product (which I'd guess is most commonly for financial return).
HTH, good luck!

[soupdragon]

Hi Ralph

A bigger pot is not an option, at least for now. I'll do a dunk sparge next time and collect about 18 or so litres, topping the boiler up as the level drops. Do you have any thoughts on boiling the 1st runings then while it's cooling boil the sparge separately? I'd probably add the bittering hops to the 1st boil and the flavour hops to the 2nd. That way I could collect enough to remove the need to dilute in the fermenter

Cheers Tom

[potatoes]

Hi Tom,

Just a tip from my very limited Mini BIAB experience. I used the FV as the vessel for the dunk sparge. The handy part about that is the tap which you can use to drain the wort rather than tipping the work out the top.

Dan

[soupdragon]

Hi Dan

I've got a spare fermenter that has a tap fitted. I was planning on using it to collect 5 gallons+ if I ever decide to do a proper split boil rather than boiling the 1st runnings and the sparge separately. Not sure which way to go to be honest.....

Cheers Tom

[RdeV]

Hi Tom,
WRT a first runnings and another sparge boil, I wouldn't, at least until I'd tried the Maxi-BIAB method adapted to the 15L pot as mentioned- IMO you should come very, very close to filling your fermenter with that (after dilution) without resorting to multiple boils. As a guide, I can get 25L of 1.050 with fairly easily in my 19L pot.

Here's an interesting historical note- I loathe extra work, so if there's a way to avoid it, that's generally where you'll find me. So, when I was first BIABing conventionally it was a 19L Mini-BIAB and I used to do two of them to fill a fermenter, the first would go in a No- Chill cube, then I would turn around and do it all again, the second would cool in- kettle the way I often do it now and at the end of a marathon effort I'd end up with a fermenter full of wort. It was loads and loads of work and I was just buggered at the end of it, this all- grain caper was shaping up to be a whole lot of work for a conventional batch.
However, I read up a bit and asked myself if the method was actually set in stone, particularly as BIAB breaks a few moulds anyway, so I squeezed all of a full grainbill in the 19L kettle, a few overflowed* but it yielded really, really strong runnings, plus I just abhor waste so sparging was natural. Of course it all wouldn't fit back in the kettle for the boil, so I let it go, about half way through the first one I looked at the gradually lowering wort level in the kettle and then to the bucket of sparge which was left over, thought 'hmmm, maybe if I...' so in the extra sparge liquor went. I was then also cognisant of the fact that trub losses were eating into the overall yield, so hoped this sparge would help to offset that by i) lower wort concentration and ii) the lower proportional losses- the added volume means that say a 1L trub loss out of 17L is not as significant as 1L out of 12L, particularly when dealing with this concentrated wort. Having the kettle full as possible at the end of the boil helped, but that all started with mashing a full- sized grainbill in the kettle to begin with and cumulatively from there the savings add up to mean it yields twice as much beer. Perhaps that's a bit oversimplified as sparging requires some extra effort, but the time it takes to fill a fermenter has about halved.
To cut a long story short, in the end we finished up with the Maxi-BIAB method which should be very helpful for folks in your position where kettle volume is quite limited with respect to the fermenter volume and means that the time taken and effort expended is much the same but you end up with about twice as much beer!

* Overflowing Maxi-BIAB kettle: Avoid by reserving a few litres of strike water in a big jug, dropping the grain in, then topping back up to full. You can also use that last few litres of water to adjust mash temperature as required (very handy tip!). Also, with BIAB, there's no need to rain in the grain, that's just a PITA, so mill/ place all of the grain into your BIAB bag lining a bucket, then drop the bag into the kettle to begin the mash. Just leave it to sit for a few moments, most of it will wet up of its own accord, then stir well, adjust temperature as mentioned above. Easy mash in!

Ps. Pardon the essay, hope it helps though...

[Redimpz]

Tom, I've been using a 15l pot for about 1 year now using RdeV's method of sparging with hot water until i have 15l full to the rivets, and it works well. I tend to follow the 19l recipes from Gw's book and dilute the finished wort to the desired SG. this usually gets me about 32 bottles of ale in 500ml bottles. can't say what the efficiancy comes out at but it all seems good to me.

[soupdragon]

All positive words guys.
I suppose the only way to find out if Maxi will work with a 15l pot is to try it. I'm supping another pint of this 1st full mash brew and I still can't get over how much tastier it is than the partials I've been doing. I'm sorry that I got that all extract trial on now, I "borrowed" the malt from work ( not 100% sure if it's proper brewing grade ). If it turns out ok it could save me a packet but every time I take a mouthfull of this full mash brew I wish I had a spare barrel for another full mash
As soon as is humanly possible I'll be doing another, Maxi style. It'll certainly be quicker than doing a split boil and I'm certain to get better extraction that way rather than just topping the mash up as I did. I'll have to get supping to free up another barrel as soon as I can

Cheers Tom

[soupdragon]

Just had another thought......

I've got a spare bucket, 20l to the brim. Would it be better to mash in that with a smaller sparge than mashing in my 15l pot with a larger volume sparge? Thinking about it I've got a spare fermenter with a tap fitted how would that work without a sparge?

Cheers Tom