Ro or tap

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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guypettigrew
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:56 pm

As long as you remember enough to make good beer; what else matters!

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by WallyBrew » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:13 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:36 pm
If anyone is interested, here is how I came up with 0.618 grams of Ca(OH)2 as the pH raising equivalent of 1 gram of baking soda:

MW of Ca(OH)2 = 74.09268, so therefore the Eq Wt of Ca(OH)2 = 37.0463 (due to the charge or valence of 2)
MW of Na(HCO3 = 84.0066, so its Eq weight is also 84.0066 (since charge or valence is 1)

37.0463/84.0066 = 0.440993

If there was no calcium ion downward impact upon mash pH shift, then 0.440993 grams of Ca(OH)2 would be the alkalinity and thereby pH raising equivalent of 1 gram of baking soda.

But every 1 mEq of added OH- from Ca(OH)2 brings along with it an equal 1 mEq of Ca++ (due to molecular cation/anion balance)

Per Kolbach it takes 3.5 mEq's of Ca++ to reduce 1 mEq of alkalinity.

1/3.5 = 0.2857 mEq of alkalinity reduction due to the calcium ion present within Ca(OH)2.

As a consequence of this, 0.2857 more Eq Wt of Ca(OH)2 is required.

But then this corrective addition brings along with it 0.2857/3.5 = 0.08163 mEq's of alkalinity reduction, etc..., etc..., so on and so on, ad-infinitum.

This infinite chain can be represented mathematically as 1 + 0.2857 + 0.2857^2 + 0.2857^3 + 0.2857^4, + 0.3857^5 ... etc..., whereby 1 is the initial need for 0.440993 x baking soda, and the rest are needed additions of OH- mEq's to counter the calcium that comes with it each time, adding to infinity.

Solving for this gives:

1 + 0.2857 + 0.2857^2 + 0.2857^3 + 0.2857^4 + 0.2857^5 ... = ~1.39921 (plus a minuscule scooch more to account for the infinity part left off here)

So ultimately, to counter the pH reduction of its own calcium, and to bring equivalence to baking sodas pH rise in the mash, one must add:

0.440993 x 1.39921 = 0.617 grams of Ca(OH)2 for every calculated 1 gram of baking soda required (plus a minuscule scooch more). Call it ~0.618 grams.

So by solving an infinite equation the mash pH raising mEq equivalent of Ca(OH)2 to baking soda yields ~0.618 grams of Ca(OH)2 for every calculated gram of baking soda. Leaving aside their dissociation constant effects, ~0.618 grams of Ca(OH)2 should raise mash pH by the same amount as 1 gram of baking soda.
I'm no mathematician but that looks complicated in the extreme

so

for every 1 eq of alkalinity 1 eq of lime will only neutralise 1 - 1/3.5 equivalents

so to neutralise 1 eq of alkalinity we get

1 / (1 - 1/3.5) which = 1.399972 as the multiplicand for the quantity of lime

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:39 pm

WallyBrew wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:13 pm
I'm no mathematician but that looks complicated in the extreme

so

for every 1 eq of alkalinity 1 eq of lime will only neutralise 1 - 1/3.5 equivalents

so to neutralise 1 eq of alkalinity we get

1 / (1 - 1/3.5) which = 1.399972 as the multiplicand for the quantity of lime
I like it. Same answer. I just took the long road. :-)
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Eric
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 pm

1.399972? Call it 1.40?

1/(1-1/3.5) using fractions.....
=1/(1-2/7)
=1/(7/7-2/7)
=1/(5/7)
=7/5
=1+(2/5)
=1.400000000


Bloody calculators.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by WallyBrew » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:26 pm

Eric wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:52 pm
1.399972? Call it 1.40?

1/(1-1/3.5) using fractions.....
=1/(1-2/7)
=1/(7/7-2/7)
=1/(5/7)
=7/5
=1+(2/5)
=1.400000000


Bloody calculators.
I agree and you must have spent many a happy hour doing this in your younger days but you will lose a mark by writing =1 + (2/5) as 7/5 was a much simpler form :D

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Eric
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:24 pm

That was to get the right number of zeros after the four. :wink:

Anyway, having water with alkalinity equivalent to 255mg/L CaCO3 makes water treatment simple for brewing stouts.
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:30 pm

killer wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:02 pm
PRIVATE FLIPPIN' FRENCH WATER WIZARD WITH THE PUERILE USERNAME REPORTING FOR DUTY CAPTAIN PEEBEE SIR ! …
:) Okay, point taken. I'll take the light-hearted response as proof we were probably both in "grumpy" mode on our first encounter. I've already admited I might have been haughty and I've now removed the "ignore list" entry so you can prove my "grumpy" assessment wrong if you must (I can see your posts again).

But back to the thread:

There has been recommendations to use the Salifert alkalinity test kit, but I earlier conradicted that based on the resolution being too great. Resolution is 5ppm as CaCO3 (to be honest I thought the resolution was greater than that), reality in my case ("Wallybrew" analysis) is 8ppm ("Brown beer", the thread "owner", has acknowledged he is from roughly the same area, Wales, and appears to get his water from surface runoff too i.e. acid moorland water). In my case the value skips about a lot because the water company has been installing new dosing equipment (I've been told) for making the pH comply to "standards". I guess 5ppm is more than adequate?

Because "Brown beer" is from a similar area to me (within the "Dwr Cymru" regime) I know his quoted Ca figure will be from the "hardness" figures (i.e. hardness "as" Ca). And will likely be surface (not bore) water with Mg, having no report, being pifflingly small (my "Wallybrew" analysis returned 1ppm).

I predicted "fireworks" and "forum wars" because someone mentioned Ca(OH)2 ("Lime"!). But the only sparks I've seen coming out me head is due to all the maths being splashed about (if anyone wants to mention "the lack of confrontation is because I've not been contributing" - be warned, I can still get grumpy!). The thread has been informative and filling in some gaps I knew I had (I think! Ooo, there goes some more sparks).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:51 pm

Hi peebee. I'm in Pembrokeshire. Surface water from llysyfran reservoir. I've enjoyed all the comments although I'm baffled by 99 percent of it. It impresses me the passion that people have though...Many thanks all! 👍 I had no idea a simple question of RO or Tap would be such a question! 😁

guypettigrew
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:13 pm

When you discover how important water treatment is in the production of good beers (as I did a few years ago. Thanks again, Eric) you become really keen to pass the knowledge on.

Once you've got your water treatment sorted you'll never look back. Takes a bit of time to work it through and understand it.

Once again, I strongly suggest you get your raw water tested by Wallybrew. It'll be incredibly useful.

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:08 pm

Thanks guy. I'm on the case...

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:05 pm

Excellent. When you get Wallybrew's analysis back you may want to post it on here so people can advise you on how to treat your water for whichever style of beer you're planning to brew.

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:30 pm

I appreciate any help! 👍

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Eric
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:01 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:30 pm
I appreciate any help! 👍
The importance of water treatment should never be berated or undervalued. While it is virtually always possible to make a drinkable beer with the water supplied to your home untreated, the chances of that water having the perfect mineral content for the beer of your choice are about as remote as those for winning the lottery several consecutive weeks.

The chemistry involved might seem by a newcomer to be complicated, but it needn't be so. An awful lot of unnecessary complexity is both written and spoken by brewers and chemists alike, the secret for the student is to study and understand that which is important and thereby learn what is not and why.

There is vastly worse advice on treating brewing liquor about than that in the notes with Graham Wheeler's Water Calculator, but for every piece of information or advice contained therein, some homebrew water expert will have a different opinion.

While the prime objective of water treatment might be to achieve a proper mash pH, that is but one objective. Don't obsess too much over mash pH, get it in the right region and concentrate on the many other important aspects of brewing that are also influenced greatly by the mineral content of your brewing liquor.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:04 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:51 pm
Hi peebee. I'm in Pembrokeshire. Surface water from llysyfran reservoir. I've enjoyed all the comments although I'm baffled by 99 percent of it. It impresses me the passion that people have though...Many thanks all! 👍 I had no idea a simple question of RO or Tap would be such a question! 😁
Hello "Brown beer". I had a mild panic when you mentioned "Pembroke" 'cos that would be close to the South Wales Coalfield which might make some of what I said invalid. But a bit of revision proved Llysyfran Reservoir catches drainage from Mynydd Preseli, So you get acid moorland surface water like most of Wales. Actually your water analysis suggested that anyway.

It was all an excuse to spend time looking at colourful geological charts such as this from Wikipedia:
Image
I love them, I'll have to get one or two framed for the wall. There's more detail in the British Geological Survey ones here: http://earthwise.bgs.ac.uk/index.php/Hy ... roundwater. Actually that entire "hydrogeology" article on Wales was quite fascinating (for me anyway; at least it didn't do my head in as badly as some of the earlier Maths). Wales makes very little use of ground-water (from bores, etc., which accounts for only 8%) 'cos it is considered poisoned by all the mining. So most Welsh water is surface-water (it's drinking all that sheep wee-wee that makes us so clever), very lightly mineralised and only influenced a little by surrounding geology (either Ca-Cl-Na dominated like ours, or Ca-HCO3 dominated where there's a bit of limestone about). As Eric suggested, it really needs a bit of treatment to make it good for brewing - adding stuff to, there's no need to take stuff away.

So much of Welsh water come off land sitting on "Silurian" and "Ordovician" bedrocks (lovely names aren't they) with limited permeability and porosity so offering very little in the way of soluble salts. The water is a "clean slate", and there's loads of "not so clean" mudstone, sandstone and siltstone to boot also.

BTW. This isn't me showing off what I know, its me learning something new and making a rather tentative connection with beer-brewing!

Also; the rarely updated "hardness as Ca" figure put out by Dwr Cymru (combined Ca and Mg figure) I did use as my Ca figure, but modified it so that the anions and cations balanced with the more frequently updated published SO4 and Cl ions. Came pretty close to the Wallybrew analysis when I got it. But at the end of the day, there just isn't much in the water.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:39 pm

Thanks for the posts Peewee & Eric. I've contacted Wallybrew who advised next analysis round will commence on the 23rd Jan and will send reminder next week (thanks Wallybrew!)..

I did contact Dcww to request magnesium value and obtain most recent data. They came back to me in 2 days (!) with below. I'm still getting it tested though..

Average results for the 01.01.2019 to the 31.12.2019
HARDNESS TOTAL (MG/L) 71
Alkalinity to pH 4.5 (MG/L as CaCO3) 37.5
Chloride (MG/L) 16
Sulphate (MG/L) 20
SODIUM (MG/L) 10.5
MAGNESIUM DISSOLVED (MG/L) 4.3

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