Ro or tap

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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Silver_Is_Money
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:56 pm

TH = 71 = 2.5(Calcium ion) + 4.12(4.3)
Ca++ = 21.3 ppm

Back on page one I guessed at 33 ppm alkalinity, 19.6 ppm Calcium, and 5.1 ppm Magnesium. Not bad guesses in retrospect.
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:19 pm

Interesting, BB. Putting those figures into Graham's water treatment calculator suggests that, for 25 litres of a 'Bitter' as Graham calls it, you'd need to add about 10g of Calcium Sulphate, 2.8g of Calcium Chloride, 1.5 g of Magnesium Sulphate and 1.9g of Sodium Chloride.

This would give you 150ppm of Calcium and a 2:1 ratio of Sulphate to Chloride. Sounds good to me, and no Calcium Carbonate to be added!

It'll be interesting to see how Wallybrew's analysis compares with the averaged annualised figures from your water company. Good on them, though, for getting back to you so quickly.

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:39 pm
… I did contact Dcww to request magnesium value and obtain most recent data. They came back to me in 2 days (!) with below. I'm still getting it tested though..

Average results for the 01.01.2019 to the 31.12.2019
HARDNESS TOTAL (MG/L) 71
Alkalinity to pH 4.5 (MG/L as CaCO3) 37.5
Chloride (MG/L) 16
Sulphate (MG/L) 20
SODIUM (MG/L) 10.5
MAGNESIUM DISSOLVED (MG/L) 4.3
Well done! I received quick replies too, but not that detailed. Probably because (unbeknown to me at the time) they were doing a lot of messing about to their treatment systems. I get the impression the requests get past through to the guys and gals on the relevant site?

Here's one for "Silver_is_Money" perhaps? What is meant by "Alkalinity to pH 4.5"? I've an idea but sometimes my ideas depart with reality!

<EDIT: Oh aye, and is "pH 4.5" a recognised standard for judging alkalinity? Thanks.>
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Silver_Is_Money
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:20 am

PeeBee wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 pm
Here's one for "Silver_is_Money" perhaps? What is meant by "Alkalinity to pH 4.5"? I've an idea but sometimes my ideas depart with reality!

<EDIT: Oh aye, and is "pH 4.5" a recognised standard for judging alkalinity? Thanks.>
Titration to pH 4.3 defines the true zero mg/L (ppm) point for the HCO3- bicarbonate species, or the point at which it ceases to exist, but some have placed (or, if you will, standardized) this endpoint at pH 4.5 in more recent times, apparently being of the opinion that it's close enough. See the chart below, and look to the lower left hand corner. So currently two endpoint standards exist.

HCO3-.png

Since alkalinity was reported as 37.5 ppm (as titrated to pH 4.5), perhaps in reality it is 37.6 ppm (give or take) to pH 4.3. No real difference.

When we acid treat sparge water to pH 5.4-5.5, we are not completely eliminating its alkalinity, although in common parlance most would state that it has been eliminated.
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Jocky
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Jocky » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:11 am

guypettigrew wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:19 pm
Interesting, BB. Putting those figures into Graham's water treatment calculator suggests that, for 25 litres of a 'Bitter' as Graham calls it, you'd need to add about 10g of Calcium Sulphate, 2.8g of Calcium Chloride, 1.5 g of Magnesium Sulphate and 1.9g of Sodium Chloride.

This would give you 150ppm of Calcium and a 2:1 ratio of Sulphate to Chloride. Sounds good to me, and no Calcium Carbonate to be added!

It'll be interesting to see how Wallybrew's analysis compares with the averaged annualised figures from your water company. Good on them, though, for getting back to you so quickly.

Guy

Personally I think the sodium chloride and magnesium sulphate additions are superfluous and BB could work without them.

Each time I’ve seen a professional water analysis recently I’ve compared it to the water company report. In all but one the water company was close enough for our purposes. The outlier had vastly differing min/max values, so I expect they were changing water sources are some point, and anyone brewing there is going to need to try and get an analysis done when that happens.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:46 am

You might be right about the Sodium Chloride and Magnesium Sulphate additions, Jocky. But, as GW's calculator suggests using them and they are so inexpensive, why not add them? A sort of 'just in case' policy! The former is, of course, ordinary table salt, the latter cost me £4.50p for a 400g tub. Enough to keep me going for about 5 years!

Interesting point about the similarity of the water company analysis and a 'professional' water analysis. It'll be good to compare Wallybrew's analysis with the water company one.

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Jocky » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:38 am

I appreciate that the other salts are very inexpensive, it’s just complicating things further when you’re adding so little, and really won’t have any noticeable effect.

I would always recommend someone to get a water analysis done whatever the water company report says, but it will give you an indication of whether your water source is likely to vary.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:06 pm

I will report back from analysis in a couple of weeks hopefully!

I planned on trying a centennial blonde recipe as below from Internet source which has a lot of good reviews. (sorry in gallons, etc!) Thought I'd try imperial yeast flagship with it.

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 6.57 gal
Estimated OG: 1.040 SG
Estimated Color: 3.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 21.5 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount
7.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)
0.75 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
0.50 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM)
0.25 oz Centennial [9.50%] (55 min)
0.25 oz Centennial [9.50%] (35 min)
0.25 oz Cascade [7.80%] (20 min)
0.25 oz Cascade [7.80%] (5 min)
1 Pkgs Nottingham (Danstar #-) (Hydrated)
Mash at 150 degrees for 60 minutes.

I'm terms of water additions I potentially need...i get supplies from the Malt Miller. I can see gypsum (calcium Sulphate) & Calcium Chloride flakes. I guess I can use sea salt from cooking for sodium Chloride? Magnesium Sulphate, Epsom salts?

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:04 pm

You may struggle with some of those ingredients. It is clearly a US recipe, so remember they were very much geared to Lager production, but Malt Miller supply British ingredients (Crisp) that are quite close. The Crisp "Lager Malt" or "Extra Pale Maris Otter" should be good as your base malt (2xSRM approximately equals EBC), the Crisp Vienna and Dextrin malts should be direct replacements. The 10L Crystal Malt is a little trickier (10L, 20EBC, is very, very light) but the Crisp Caramalt should do. There is the popular Weyermann continental malts but you will pay through the nose for them.

You should be able to get the US hops ok. But I found the BBC pelleted hops a revelation if your brewing system can handle the sludge from pellets (on top of the "break" debris). Malt Miller do have the BBC pellets as well as whole hops.

And as water (and BIAB) is what this thread is about: I've chosen a lightly mineralised profile as this is an "American" beer and they do tend to underdo the minerals over there (GW's profiles will be proper mineralised UK profiles) and I've minimised the salts so you don't need to go on a hunt. I've used your water volumes and assumed a full-boil-volume "traditional" BIAB mash (you may hold some water back for "sparging" if you haven't a vessel big enough):

27.6 litres water (allows for grain absorption and a 6.6 US gallon boil size).
0.1g (1/4 Camden tablet will do) to clear any chlorine (its very unlikely they use chloramine at your reservoir, so you can skip this addition and leave the water uncovered overnight).
4.14g Gypsum (gives 107ppm sulphate and 56ppm calcium - don't bother with 2 decimal places, round up or down).
1.1g Common Salt (gives 40ppm chloride, It does bump sodium up a bit high, 27ppm, but hardly significant and saves sourcing other salts).
2ml 81% Phosphoric Acid or equivalent of other acid (unusual addition this, gets the mash pH down to about 5.3, but it's the result of using an under mineralised profile, calcium tends to cause the pH to drop, and "full-boil-volume" mash diluting the grain. And no "acidic" dark grains either).
(Calculated with Bru'n Water, a popular or unpopular calculator depending on your point of view).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Eric
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:26 pm

Yes, that recipe is unlikely to have been created with British malts and water profile in mind.
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:02 am

Again, I didn't realise when I decided on that recipe all the things I might/should consider. I am grateful for all the advice and will use it for sure! Maybe I could post wallybrews analysis and you could confirm your thoughts in due course? I will have a look at Bru'n Water and see if I can roughly understand it in line with your comments.

The 81% Phosphoric Acid or equivalent of other acid. Had a look at Malt Miller but can't see this. Could you point me in the right direction?

I guess for an English blonde recipe the water style would be different to an American one? (something I'd not realised or thought about!) could I use an English water profile (not dead sure what this is?) for this recipe or should I stick to above?

Thanks

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:54 am

Brown beer wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:02 am
Again, I didn't realise when I decided on that recipe all the things I might/should consider. I am grateful for all the advice and will use it for sure! Maybe I could post wallybrews analysis and you could confirm your thoughts in due course? I will have a look at Bru'n Water and see if I can roughly understand it in line with your comments.

The 81% Phosphoric Acid or equivalent of other acid. Had a look at Malt Miller but can't see this. Could you point me in the right direction?

I guess for an English blonde recipe the water style would be different to an American one? (something I'd not realised or thought about!) could I use an English water profile (not dead sure what this is?) for this recipe or should I stick to above?

Thanks
All choices are yours! All that PeeBee and I have advised is that we think that recipe was devised by an American homebrewer for an end product to be as most American homebrewers believe such beers should be. There is however, a world of difference between traditional British Ale and American homebrew. PeeBee has offered an American water profile to match that recipe, I will offer no such advice as I find such unsatisfactory for my needs and would not wish imply that I agree with what I consider as shortcomings in their processes to replicate British beer.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:12 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:02 am
Again, I didn't realise when I decided on that recipe all the things I might/should consider. I am grateful for all the advice and will use it for sure! Maybe I could post wallybrews analysis and you could confirm your thoughts in due course? I will have a look at Bru'n Water and see if I can roughly understand it in line with your comments. …
"Bru'n Water" and "see if I can roughly understand it" might not fit together! But there is a "free" downloadable version to get started (it's an Excel spreadsheet, but might also work in the free Google Sheets application though I've not tried it). A "contribution" gets you the full version. But not everyone would encourage you to use "Bru'n Water" and I think Wallybrew, who you mentioned in the preceding sentence, might be one of them! Certainly the impression he gave me. <EDIT: And it doesn't need me to suggest what Eric's view is!>
Brown beer wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:02 am
The 81% Phosphoric Acid or equivalent of other acid. Had a look at Malt Miller but can't see this. Could you point me in the right direction? …
For such a small correction you could probably skip it. A lot of homebrewers on this forum use AMS (aka CRS) which Malt Miller do sell but I'm not sure of the equivalent quantity. But I suggested it, I should sort it. I'll send you a vial (diluted, 'cos concentrated acid isn't a thing to send through the post) if you PM me. I got Phosphoric Acid (81%) as "Hydrogarden's" or "Vitalink's" "pH Down" off Amazon or eBay.
Brown beer wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:02 am
I guess for an English blonde recipe the water style would be different to an American one? (something I'd not realised or thought about!) could I use an English water profile (not dead sure what this is?) for this recipe or should I stick to above?

Thanks
The great thing about using an "American" profile is you could kick off with the minimum salts (my suggestion only required you to get gypsum, you already have common salt). I selected the Bru'n Water "Yellow, dry" profile; I find these "colour" type profiles easier to follow than GW's specific beer type profiles (I've got the GW profiles entered into Bru'n Water, but got into a tangle before Xmas trying to use a GW "Bitter" profile for a "Burton Ale").

But all this still leaves you a bit "high and dry". As I've been involved in that I could make a suggestion: I've been meaning to test a "BIAB" setup and your recipe would make a good candidate. I can "put my money where my mouth is" and run a parallel brew session with you? Only a few caveats: I "emulate" BIAB (full-boil-volume-mash) using a Grainfather :? . I use it now for my "low-alcohol" brewing; the bit I really want to try is my "low alcohol" fermenting setup, which wont be anything like you would do, fermenting an average strength beer, under pressure, in the dispensing keg :shock: . And I can't really give telephone support (and I probably really mean "can't"; some folk on this forum will understand why, and why I like forums :out ).

My water is similar to yours, except if you've skimmed through that "hydrogeology" report I posted you might better fit in the "Ca-HCO3" group while I'm firmly in the "Ca-Cl-Na" group. I won't be adding any acid.

So a joint "Centennial Melyn" session? PM me.
Last edited by PeeBee on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:28 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:20 am
Titration to pH 4.3 defines the true zero mg/L (ppm) point for the HCO3- bicarbonate species, …
Thanks very much. A titration "end point" might have been what I was imagining, but I hadn't prepared myself for the explanation! :out

That diagram. Remarkable I haven't seen anything like it before. Takes a while to figure what it is telling, but when it does click it explains so much!

People with "normal" levels of alkalinity possibly do not understand why I fart about with such tiny scrapes of acid. Neither did I! But when your alkalinity is so low (alkalinity being a measure of water's resistance to changing pH with acid) just 1ml of conc. acid in 50L swings the pH easily through 1/2 a pH, or more. Now I better understand why. I think?

👍
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Silver_Is_Money
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:38 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:28 pm
Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:20 am
Titration to pH 4.3 defines the true zero mg/L (ppm) point for the HCO3- bicarbonate species, …
Thanks very much. A titration "end point" might have been what I was imagining, but I hadn't prepared myself for the explanation! :out

That diagram. Remarkable I haven't seen anything like it before. Takes a while to figure what it is telling, but when it does click it explains so much!

People with "normal" levels of alkalinity possibly do not understand why I fart about with such tiny scrapes of acid. Neither did I! But when your alkalinity is so low (alkalinity being a measure of water's resistance to changing pH with acid) just 1ml of conc. acid in 50L swings the pH easily through 1/2 a pH, or more. Now I better understand why. I think?

👍
I just found out that titration to pH 4.5 is the new/official 'ISO' standard.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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