Ro or tap

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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Jocky
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Jocky » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:15 am

Heron1952 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:09 am
Interesting MME spreadsheet, sadly no CRS or AMS or H2SO4 or HCl acid additions. That's in common with many water calculators. Those acids would all affect the critical sulphate and chloride balance, not just alkalinity
CRS/AMS is in there.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 am

To back up what "Jocky" just said; this is from the MME screenshot above …
Capture.JPG
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:33 pm

Eric wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:52 pm
… For PeeBee, I notice you have spent time on the British Geological Survey website, but did you come across this page?
I think I see what you were getting at now: The BGS stuff you've linked could be applied to what I was saying in the preceding post, where I was making assumptions about minerals drifting in the wind. I'd have never believed that the BGS would have attempted to plot such things (or even that you could plot such things). The map can be made slightly more bearable by turning off "superficial deposits" (at least the "key" shortened substantially).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:03 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:02 am
… The 81% Phosphoric Acid or equivalent of other acid. Had a look at Malt Miller but can't see this. Could you point me in the right direction? …
I'm beginning to think that suggesting where to get 81% Phosphoric Acid from wasn't a great idea. AMS/CRS is probably a better bet and MME does calculate the dose (as does "paid-for" BW; it's about x4 the correct dosage for 81% Phosphoric Acid). Although at the levels you'd use you wont get the debated "problems" with Phosphoric Acid, it's still a dangerous stuff to have about (I've burnt a few holes into my kitchen worktop with it).

Brewers seem to use Lactic Acid on the continent, whereas Americans don't let the alleged problems with Phosphoric Acid bother them, and so that's what they'll generally use. There's loads of Phosphoric Acid in Coke-Cola!
Last edited by PeeBee on Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:10 pm

Heron1952 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:09 am
Interesting MME spreadsheet, sadly no CRS or AMS or H2SO4 or HCl acid additions. That's in common with many water calculators. Those acids would all affect the critical sulphate and chloride balance, not just alkalinity
MME has CRS/AMS. I agree that it has no accommodation for straight sulfuric or hydrochloric acid.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:36 pm

For those wanting to make up a solution of calcium chloride in water:

If you make up 100 grams of anhydrous CaCl2 (or 132.5 grams of the dihydrate form) to 1 Liter in distilled water, then its as easy as knowing that every 10 mL of your calcium chloride solution will deliver 1 gram of anhydrous CaCl2.

When you are at the level of 100 grams of pure calcium chloride dissolved in 1 Liter of distilled water the room temperature specific gravity falls extremely close to 1.081. If you initially come up a bit shy of 1.081 SG just add CaCl2 in small amounts until you come to 1.081 SG at room temperature. If your SG winds up greater than 1.081, then cut with distilled water incrementally until you hit 1.081 SG.

Expect the water to get right hot after adding in the CaCL2. Allow to cool to room temperature for SG readings.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:58 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:20 am
… select "Pale, Vienna, 5.65" via the drop-down to assign a DI_pH of 5.65 to both of your base malts. As seen in your snapshots above, you had your base malts set to "Pilsner", with it default assigned 5.80 DI_pH. A base malt with a DI_pH of 5.80 is inherently much less acidic than a base malt with a DI_pH of 5.65. …
Ah-ha. I was getting to grips with DI_pH for base malts when I posted the MME snippet earlier: I'd changed the "base malt DI_pH" to Pilsner 'cos in the UK "Extra Pale Malt" is "Lager Malt"; there's no difference. But perhaps I should have increased the value to 5.75, 5.70, or even 5.65, to accommodate the more roasted "Vienna".

But it does illustrate what I was getting at: Those numbers and "DI_pH" are a bit hairy for most users, and that includes me but I'm more tenacious than most folk. More "friendly" labels would be good. I was getting on my high horse about geeky user interfaces because I remember all too clearly a big Excel project I was developing (a couple of decades ago). It looked very smart with extensive value error checking, clear formatted layout, etc.. The ladies who were to use it hated it and it was withdrawn after about two weeks. Six or eight months work down the drain, and I never understood why. Well I wouldn't, I'm a geek!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:26 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:58 pm
Ah-ha. I was getting to grips with DI_pH for base malts when I posted the MME snippet earlier: I'd changed the "base malt DI_pH" to Pilsner 'cos in the UK "Extra Pale Malt" is "Lager Malt"; there's no difference. But perhaps I should have increased the value to 5.75, 5.70, or even 5.65, to accommodate the more roasted "Vienna".
Ah, I see where I was confused. As you surmised, I mistook Extra Pale Malt to be a Pale (or Pale Ale) type of base malt in error.

2.02(5.80) + 0.31(5.65) = 2.33(Blended_DI_pH)

Blended DI_pH = 5.78

That's close enough to 5.80 to leave it set for Pilsner. Or you could chose 5.75. Your choice. Without actual DI_pH testing (or an analytical report from the maltster for your specific lots) it's merely an educated "ballpark" guess anyway. But it should prove to offer more flexibility than just calling all base malts "base". And worse yet, trying to adjust for base malt acidity variations by changing its color. There is little to effectively no base malt acidity (or DI_pH) relationship to base malt color. Bries 2_Row Brewers base malt at 1.8L has a DI_pH of about 5.55, and Continental Pilsner base malt at the identical 1.8L can run as high as 5.85 DI_pH (or higher). I speculate that most mash pH assistant software packages set all base malts internally to somewhere around 5.70 DI_pH as a compromise that falls roughly in the middle of the road as to what one may come across. Then they tweak it somewhat by making lighter base malt colors more basic and darker base malt colors more acidic (which is an approach just shown to be false).
Last edited by Silver_Is_Money on Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Heron1952 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:41 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:10 pm
Heron1952 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:09 am
Interesting MME spreadsheet, sadly no CRS or AMS or H2SO4 or HCl acid additions. That's in common with many water calculators. Those acids would all affect the critical sulphate and chloride balance, not just alkalinity
MME has CRS/AMS. I agree that it has no accommodation for straight sulfuric or hydrochloric acid.
Ah yes missed that. And as a result the sulphate and chloride are adjusted great!! Just need straight acids, and someone to persuade either Brewfather or Beersmith to listen and learn!! :D :D
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:55 pm

Some recent work I've done is indicating that a setting of 40% should be applied to Mash Made Easy's switch titled "%Log Base 10 Mash pH (Balance Linear)". The spreadsheet ships with this switch set to 100%, and 40% is likely to be found to be a better fit to measured mash pH data overall.

And as to the "Grist buffer multiplier", set it at 0.70.

As to sulfuric and hydrochloric acid, they are not used by homebrewers in the States, and I don't believe that we even have a means whereby to purchase them in food grade versions. I use acid malt and/or 88% lactic acid. Concentrated Phosphoric Acid scares me. Concentrated versions of Hydrochloric and Sulfuric would terrify me. I wish we had CRS/AMS here in the States, but sadly we do not.
Last edited by Silver_Is_Money on Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Heron1952 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:53 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:55 pm
Snip
As to sulfuric and hydrochloric acid, they are not used by homebrewers in the States, and I don't believe that we even have a means whereby to purchase them in food grade versions. I use acid malt and/or 88% lactic acid. Concentrated Phosphoric Acid scares me. Concentrated versions of Hydrochloric and Sulfuric would terrify me. I wish we had CRS/AMS here in the States, but sadly we do not.

That's true for the states, there are some very lively discussions on this forum about the US v UK approach. Also 1 or 2 mol acids, are less scary!! Some high Alkalinity UK waters would need a lot of Lactic acid to make a light beer!
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:21 pm

Heron1952 wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:53 pm
That's true for the states, there are some very lively discussions on this forum about the US v UK approach. Also 1 or 2 mol acids, are less scary!! Some high Alkalinity UK waters would need a lot of Lactic acid to make a light beer!
My well water has 377 mg/L alkalinity, and 459 mg/L Bicarbonate. The TDS is about 756 ppm. I have an RO unit. It brings the TDS down to about 40 ppm. RO is the answer to high alkalinity. If I added lactic acid to my well water to control its alkalinity, the level of lactic acid would well exceed the taste threshold.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Jocky » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:40 pm

CRS/AMS works well for high alkalinity water - certainly up to the 250-265ppm I get.
Ingredients: Water, Barley, Hops, Yeast, Seaweed, Blood, Sweat, The swim bladder of a sturgeon, My enemies tears, Scenes of mild peril, An otter's handbag and Riboflavin.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Heron1952 » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:14 am

Far too much waste water using RO for my preference😉 CRS works too but loads too much sulphate for me often.
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Hanglow » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:04 pm

I've always used lactic acid due to Glasgow water being so soft. It's also handy for use in beers if you want a bit of that lactic tang and don't use a yeast that is a big lactic acid producer. Also used it in bread making too as a flavour component and when making invert.

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