Ro or tap

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 18, 2020 1:42 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 6:55 pm
… Concentrated Phosphoric Acid scares me. Concentrated versions of Hydrochloric and Sulfuric would terrify me. I wish we had CRS/AMS here in the States, but sadly we do not.
I said Phosphoric Acid "burned" holes in my worktop which isn't quite true (I don't know what it would do on my hand; oddly enough, I haven't had a desire to try it). The worktop is finished in super tough epoxy coating, but epoxy isn't so tough when it comes to acids. The finish doesn't "burn" on contact with the acid, it just "vanishes". Fortunately the finish can be patched (unlike varnish), when I can get round to it.

Being "scared" of Phosphoric Acid is not a bad policy. I bought the wretched stuff before I had results from an Alkalinity analysis: 8ppm, I guess the acid is going to be around my cupboard for a few years.

There are restrictions buying conc. acid in the UK now. They don't seem to cover 81% Phosphoric, or (the much weaker) AMS.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:03 pm

A bit of trivia. I just determined that (specifically for the typical mash pH target range) 30% Phosphoric Acid and CRS/AMS should be essentially mEq/mL acid strength equivalents. Nigh on 1:1 equivalent in pH alteration and alkalinity reduction on a mL for mL basis.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:28 am

I discovered a problem in the metric version of 'Mash Made Easy' which led to fixes in both versions, and to the release of version 8.35.

Changes made in version 8.35:

1) Fixes a problem in the Metric version with changing the percent concentration of Lactic Acid.
2) Fixes a problem in both versions with Acid Malt quantity, which only occurred in earlier versions if the % Conc. of Lactic Acid was changed.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:48 am

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:36 pm
For those wanting to make up a solution of calcium chloride in water:

If you make up 100 grams of anhydrous CaCl2 (or 132.5 grams of the dihydrate form) to 1 Liter in distilled water, then its as easy as knowing that every 10 mL of your calcium chloride solution will deliver 1 gram of anhydrous CaCl2.

When you are at the level of 100 grams of pure calcium chloride dissolved in 1 Liter of distilled water the room temperature specific gravity falls extremely close to 1.081. If you initially come up a bit shy of 1.081 SG just add CaCl2 in small amounts until you come to 1.081 SG at room temperature. If your SG winds up greater than 1.081, then cut with distilled water incrementally until you hit 1.081 SG.

Expect the water to get right hot after adding in the CaCL2. Allow to cool to room temperature for SG readings.
I've been keen to do this for a while. I knew Calcium Chloride was unreliable as a solid because it's so hydroscopic, that the "dihydrate" didn't have to be 100% dihydrate and was still hydroscopic anyway. I'd been following the suggestion in Bru'n Water to treat it (dihydrate) as "anhydrous" and so avoid over-dosing, without really appreciating how much I'd be under-dosing; made a mockery of me weighing out salts to 2 decimal places (I have at least stopped that insanity).

So I made up my solution, 100g made up to 1000ml (actually 132.5g of dihydrate). It measured 1.082 on my old hydrometer - must "calibrate" it but seems close enough for now. Doesn't seem to be much problem with heat creating a relative weak solution. But then things started to go wrong. As mentioned above I'm running MME along-side Bru'n Water (the calculator I've been using for years) so I'd entered the solution strength, 10%, into BW ...

Yeah, I know what I've done, but it's those numbers! And I bet there's plenty of folk reading this who've seen nothing odd yet. So I'll leave them to mull on that and then I'll finish off this post (I'm going out just now) ...
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:50 am

1,000 mL x 1.082 = 1,082 grams

100 grams/1,082 grams = 9.2421% by weight concentration. Not 10% by weight.

Percent by weight concentration seems to be an awkward means of handling this, as most will likely make the very same intuitive error.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:55 pm

Thanks "Silver...", things like that are always better coming from someone else and not me <- loon-ey! ... hoy, shutup you.

So in figuring out my own nonsense I try to look up an SG table for CaCl2 "brines". Surprisingly difficult, but this seemed okay: https://www.oxy.com/OurBusinesses/Chemi ... -01791.pdf, Table 3a. Hopefully someone can do better than that? But the relevant bit was:
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (19.87 KiB) Viewed 2925 times
Next was calibrate that ancient hydrometer with a known sugar solution … crikey, can't be bothered! Like many other home-brewers I have cheapo Chinese "jeweler's" scales that can weigh 100g at 0.01g resolution, and happen to have a 25ml measuring cylinder, so:
20200121_122042_WEB.jpg
Subtract weight of cylinder, I could use "tare" but I'm not quick enough to beat the "time-out", and multiply by 4 to pretend I have 100ml and (just need to lookup my book "Mathematics for the Criminally Insane" … ah, here we are) jiggle the decimal point so it looks right, and the result:

1.000

Well it was water in the photo! For the solution I prepared it came out 1.072. So that CaCl2 of mine has absorbed a bit of water and my old hydrometer can go in the bin. I've an 8% solution. I decide there's not much point following "Silver..'s" post and correcting the gravity, 'cos his spreadsheet handles the difference easily. I put "8%" in BW too … Flip, using CaCl2 solutions in Bru'n Water is not so easy, we're still measuring out the solution in grams, not mls, for a start … one up for MME!


FOOTNOTE:
That SG technique comes from memories of school. If you've got scales that weigh fractions of a gram, as many of us have (for weighing brewing salts), that method is miles better than using old-fashioned, fragile hydrometers! Doesn't need conversion tables like refractometers either. I remember you'd use small volumetric flasks (£2-3) instead of a measuring cylinder, or made for purpose "pyknometers" (okay, maybe £20) or "hubbard bottles" - The last two are great if your sight isn't up to reading to the "meniscus".

The message is clear: Stop using poxy, old-fashioned and completely un-necessary hydrometers!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:24 pm

You could take a Brix scaled refractometer reading of it:

Grams of CaCl2 per Liter of solution = 5.9392*Bx + 0.050098*Bx^2 -0.00018856*Bx^3 + 4.7399e-06*Bx^4

(where Bx = Brix)
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:26 pm

I've double checked the 'MME' formula for computing CaCl2 addition quantities via S.G., and I find no fault in it. PeeBee, are you finding it at fault?

To give credit where credit is due, the formula I'm using in 'MME' was developed by A.J. deLange.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:45 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:26 pm
I've double checked the 'MME' formula for computing CaCl2 addition quantities via S.G., and I find no fault in it. PeeBee, are you finding it at fault?

To give credit where credit is due, the formula I'm using in 'MME' was developed by A.J. deLange.
Finding fault? Certainly not. I thought I was being complimentary at times. Maybe my somewhat "casual" language isn't translating across the Atlantic so well? Maybe the folk over here are not understanding a word of my babble either? :mrgreen:
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:46 pm

Your CaCl2 solution, if 1.072 S.G. at 20 degrees C, should be 13.44 Brix.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:42 pm

… "Silver_is_Money"; If you are worried that I'm criticising your work, here's an example of me really criticising your work for comparison:
Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:24 pm
You could take a Brix scaled refractometer reading of it:

Grams of CaCl2 per Liter of solution = 5.9392*Bx + 0.050098*Bx^2 -0.00018856*Bx^3 + 4.7399e-06*Bx^4

(where Bx = Brix)
You've just put off a dozen home-brewers from going any where near a refractometer! :?


That aside: Tried my refractometer on my SG1.072 CaCl2 solution and got 15.2. That was done a bit slap dash so I'll give it another go later.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:52 pm

15.2 Brix would equate to 101.44 grams of anhydrous CaCl2 per Liter. That seems to be well in line with what you added. It also equates nigh on perfectly well to your original 1.082 S.G. reading.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:59 pm

Loving this thread. Steadily getting more like 'Alice through the Looking Glass'!!

Hope the OP's water analysis from Wallybrew turns up soon so we can get back on track!

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:39 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:59 pm
Loving this thread. Steadily getting more like 'Alice through the Looking Glass'!!

Hope the OP's water analysis from Wallybrew turns up soon so we can get back on track!

Guy
This white rabbit sitting next to me thinks you are talking rubbish!

Anyway, getting (just slightly on track) Malt Miller delivered my ingredients for "Brown Beer's" "Centennial Blonde" ("melyn") recipe today, so I'll be hanging about a bit yet.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:05 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:42 pm
You've just put off a dozen home-brewers from going any where near a refractometer! :?
The ones who realize that Refractometers are scaled specifically to directly read the concentration of "sugar in water" solutions will consider it appropriate that some degree of math is required to make them properly read "calcium chloride in water" solutions instead.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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