Ro or tap

Make grain beers with the absolute minimum of equipment. Discuss here.
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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:58 pm

A very stylised illustration of a BIAB system (I've repurposed some earlier illustrations) might go like:
BIAB.jpg
The "Bag" containing the grain is immersed in a boiler, which has a tap, a heating element (E) and a temperature probe (T). The probe is probably part of something like an "Inkbird" ITC-308. It might well be controlling the heating element, although such an arrangement is doomed to fail because there's nothing but inefficient conduction and perhaps a tiny bit of convection (if the mash is thin enough) to spread the heat through the grain bag.

Some may try to improve on this by attaching a pump to the tap and recirculating the wort. It does need a fairly robust pump, 'cos of the mash debris in the wort:
Enhanced BIAB.jpg
The outlet pipe might need a valve to throttle the flow of the recirculating wort (the upstream tap on the boiler cannot do this). I've seen examples of this layout where the "bag" is simply tied onto the pump's outlet hose.

Doesn't that look like a "one-pot" brew system? (i.e. like a "Grainfather").

I use the Grainfather in a full-boil-volume-mash mode (or no-sparge) so it is very like a full-boil-volume-mash BIAB system. Many BIABers don't follow the full-boil-volume-mash model, but for an 18L batch of OG1.040 beer, and a 30L boiler capacity full-boil-volume-mash is more than adequate.

I allow 1.5L of unrecoverable boiler "deadspace" (i.e. losses going into the fermenter) when working out the water volume needed.

Edited to include some extra details.
Last edited by PeeBee on Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Jocky
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Jocky » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:14 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:56 pm
Jocky wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 3:06 pm
… Surely your calcium chloride was 'usable' for brewing levels of accuracy in the first place? Yes, you may end up under-dosing it in some cases, but I doubt that would be to a degree that is going to make a noticeable difference in your final beer... unlike the levels of magnesium/sodium you might add if using your alternatives.

The brewing process adds an awful more chloride to your finished beer than you would usually add in any case (something in the range of 150-250ppm from the evidence I've seen).
If my solid CaCl2 is proving "usable", that's only because of the mucking about in the last few days "analysing" it. Was it "useable" last year? Will it be "usable" next year? A solution should be.

I'm sure it's solid CaCl2 that's responsible for trashing my cheapo weighing scales (I'm on my third set).
What are you doing to your scales?
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:32 pm

Jocky wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:14 pm
… What are you doing to your scales?
The current ones switch on or off for no reason. I'm a bit worried that they didn't return usable results compared to my kitchen scales that have100x less resolution. Things got a little better when I stopped storing it in it's box (i.e. let the air circulate around it). It is normally only used for weighing water treatment salts. I'm hoping this set lasts longer 'cos it's all plastic; the others had stainless steel trays, etc., which went rusty!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:14 pm

Looking at "Brown beer's" water profile (using the information he posted from Dwr Cymru and "Silver's" interpretation for Ca), and keeping down the water treatment salts to just gypsum (plus common salt that everyone has kicking about somewhere) you get:
Melyn MME (Pemb).JPG
This gives much more Sodium but at under 30ppm which is hardly a concern. The higher alkalinity needs a bit more Phosphoric Acid to neutralise and allow the pH to come down (to 5.32). This is using Mash Made Easy as before.

But switching Phosphoric Acid to CRS/AMS (which you can get from Malt Miller, "Brown beer's" preferred supplier) you can still drop the Sodium some more:
Melyn MME (Pemb) ii.JPG
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Mon Jan 27, 2020 9:24 pm

Hi All. Phoenix Analytical have worked their magic on my water supply (Thanks!) and come back with the following:

Sodium as Na = 8.3
Potassium as K = 1.6
Magnesium as Mg = 3.3
Calcium as Ca = 25.8
Chloride as Cl = 17.6
Nitrate as NO3 = 10.3
Phosphate as PO4 = 1.6
Sulphate as SO4 = 20.5
Total alkalinity as CACO3 = 38
pH = 7.21
Conductivity = 178
Total residual chlorine as Cl2 = <0.01

I'm still planning on trying the Centennial recipe but I'm not majorly picky on getting a USA type - after all this is my 1st approach at modifying my water. Anything approaching a good "Blonde Ale" recipe would be great (if there is such a thing?)

I'm upping the malt slightly to get an ideal % of about 4.3 so recipe below:

21L Batch
60 min Mash at 65C and 10 mins at 75C
60 min boil
4.3% (1.043 to 1.010)
7.1EBC
20 IBU

Pale Maris Otter, Crisp (3EBC) 3300g
Dextrine Malt, Crisp (3EBC) 360g
Caramalt, Crisp (29.5EBC) 240g
Vienna Malt , Crisp (9EBC) 240g

Centennial (10.7%) 7g at 50 mins
Centennial 7g at 35 mins
Cascade (3%) 14g at 20 mins
cascade 14g at 5 mins

Grateful for any advise on the water additions - Please keep it simple (if possible?!) as I'm new to all this!!! Thanks again all!

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:52 am

Hi BB

Dropping your numbers into Graham Wheeler's water treatment calculator tells me that, for 21 litres of a 'dry pale ale', you'd need to add 9.9g of calcium sulphate, 4.6g of calcium chloride, 2.5g of magnesium sulphate and 1.2g of sodium chloride. This would give you 195ppm of calcium and a 2:1 ratio of sulphate:chloride. If you don't have any magnesium sulphate, don't worry.

Choosing a different beer style from GW's calculator would give you different figures.

Your water's lower in calcium than is ideal for the mash, so it would probably be best to add the salts to the dry grain. Or you could add a portion of them (say 3/4) to the dry grain and the rest during the sparge. Either way will get the calcium in the mash to >100ppm.

That's what I'd do, given your water. But there are far more experienced people on here. Don't rush off and start a brew on the basis of my suggestions until more people have commented!

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:52 pm

Many thanks Guy.

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:45 pm

guypettigrew wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:52 am
Hi BB

Dropping your numbers into Graham Wheeler's water treatment calculator tells me that, for 21 litres of a 'dry pale ale', you'd need to add 9.9g of calcium sulphate, 4.6g of calcium chloride, 2.5g of magnesium sulphate and 1.2g of sodium chloride. This would give you 195ppm of calcium and a 2:1 ratio of sulphate:chloride. If you don't have any magnesium sulphate, don't worry.

Choosing a different beer style from GW's calculator would give you different figures.

Your water's lower in calcium than is ideal for the mash, so it would probably be best to add the salts to the dry grain. Or you could add a portion of them (say 3/4) to the dry grain and the rest during the sparge. Either way will get the calcium in the mash to >100ppm.

That's what I'd do, given your water. But there are far more experienced people on here. Don't rush off and start a brew on the basis of my suggestions until more people have commented!

Guy
Oh, come on Guy, you've built up your knowledge over a significant period by experimenting with water profiles and consuming the products. Mind, I wouldn't advise to ignore the importance of magnesium in brewing. Provided the mash contains adequate calcium (>100ppm), magnesium will not dominate the vital chemical reactions and impart the flavour some don't enjoy.

I still don't know what to advise as I'm not sure of the objective of that recipe. In the original version it had US 2 row pale, a malt that I would expect have a higher nitrogen level than those of UK and Vienna has a similar high level of protein. Then both other malts produce long chain dextrines which introduce sweetness and body, so I wonder what the objective might be of a high protein wort with 15% of less fermentable sugars in America?

Your dry ale profile might be perfect Guy, I just can't help myself thinking that a high dextrine wort and 20 IBU makes a "Mild" in my book. Of course US05 wouldn't be an obvious choice for a Mild either.

A further consideration must be to take account of the process, BIAB, which is different with different needs to a 3V system.

BB, you mention a Blonde Beer, what would you consider are the main characteristics of such a beer and how would you expect one to taste? Should it be dry or have a good degree of sweetness and what about hop flavours and bitterness?
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:21 pm

Absolutely correct, Eric!! I was simply giving an illustration of how GW's calculator works, based on BB's wish to make a 'blonde beer'. For the purpose of the illustration I completely ignored BB's intended recipe or process. Perhaps not very helpful. The comment about the magnesium sulphate was only because not every one has it in their brewing drawer. I use it, but leaving it out won't make undrinkable beer.

In the case of BB's recipe, I'd suggest a standard 66°C mash for 75 minutes, rather than the 65°C then 75°C given.

Yes, 20 IBU's seems very low. For a 'blonde beer' I'd drop the dextrin malt and caramalt from the recipe, leave the Vienna and probably add some caragold. At an expected OG of 1.040 ish in a blonde I'd go for about 35-40 IBUs. I've never used centennial hops, so have no view on them. Cascade would be fine as an aroma hop but, being me, for a blonde I'd probably throw in some citra as well!

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:29 pm

Hi both. Thanks for your help. If I'm honest I'm maybe out if my depth against your knowledge but I'm doggy paddling and trying to stay float! 😁 🤞

Guy. I'm going with your recommendations. Eric, I've no idea about blonde characteristics sadly just that the original recipe was called centennial blonde! I've got to order stuff tonight for it to arrive for allotted day unfortunately. I'll up Ibu and change malt and then fingers crossed I guess!

Thanks again all..

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:55 pm

I'll update my tuppence worth too:
Melyn BS (Pemb) iii.JPG
(Click on it to enlarge). I've kept to minimal salts (gypsum and common salt) but dropping the pH with CRS/AMS (Malt Miller sell it). I altered the water to reflect your new test, but it didn't change anything much, which is what you should expect but now you know for sure. I haven't upped the malt as you have and kept OG to 1.040, but I only set "efficiency" to 70% - oddly my interpretation of the recipe gives higher amounts of "other" malts. The "Lager" malt seems to have replaced "Extra Pale Malt" in Malt Miller, but your choice of Extra Pale Maris Otter malt will be fine. Hops I couldn't equate to what you are using so I left the BBC ones as I would use. American "C" hops, in whole cone form, do deteriorate pretty quick and I wouldn't touch any older than 9 nine months but the "BBC" ones are good.

I've hung on to "Silver_Is_Money"'s water calculator, and on to American style anaemic water profile. But it wont cause any shocks.
Melyn MME (Pemb) iii.JPG
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:09 pm

Forgot to add …

My recipe has the important feature of having spelt "blonde" in Welsh. But you might live the other side of the "Landsker" line and so that would be meaningless?

For anyone perplexed at what I'm on about (does anyone understand anything I'm on about?) there's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsker_Line. Makes Wales sound like an episode of "Game of Thrones" … with the added feature that we have a dragon!




<EDIT: Also forgot to point out the water quantity has been calculated for a "full-boil-volume" BIAB mash, and should fit in a 32L boiler … just!>
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:44 pm

Thanks. Yup, other side of the line!! I'll get ordering later..

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by guypettigrew » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:19 pm

Hi PeeBee

Oops, silly me. Forgot to suggest reducing the alkalinity. Very important, even with water at 38ppm. For a blonde I'd want to drop the alkalinity to 15-20ppm. Needing about 2.5ml in 21L of BB's water.

BB; add some AMS/CRS to your MM order, if you don't already have it. If you've ordered online already then give them a call tomorrow morning. 38ppm alkalinity will still make good beer. But for the recipe you're now going for, 15-20ppm will be even better!

Guy

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:04 pm

Ah. I've got crs but not ams. I'll give them a call tomorrow! Tomorrow I'll post my reviewed recipe if you'd be able to take a look that'd be great and confirm water additions. I'm working the GW calcs also but want to cross ref with what you get to make sure I'm using it properly. Brewing Friday 🤞. I guess I don't need Camden tablet addition? I've always just added it...

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