Ro or tap

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Brown beer
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Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:27 pm

Hi all. Been thinking about brew water. I live in a moderately soft water area. Analysis from water company below (no magnesium available).

Caco3 70
Ca 28
Sulphate 23
Chloride 27
Sodium 11.6

I have an RODI filter system. Do I need to get this water analysed or can I assume certain values? Should I use this instead and build water up?

Thanks all

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:21 pm

You've soft water, you absolutely do not need to use water treated by RO systems, or diluted, or "pre-treated" in any other way. Just use the values as a base to build on. No need to get an analysis, but having said that I did and have water similar to you, simply because calculated and measured pH values danced about, but the analysis didn't help me except to drill home some "uncomfortable" facts about water chemistry dealing with very soft water, and the analysis was probably quite different a month later anyway.

Do not read too much into the CaCO3 and Ca values. They are probably connected with the "hardness" analysis; CaCO3 is a convenient salt to measure things "as" rather than "is" and CaCO3 will not actually exist in your water (carbonate and bicarbonate exist in an equilibrium in water, unless you have quite alkaline water the equilibrium favours bicarbonate nearly exclusively). The "Ca" is probably assumed from the fictitious CaCO3 value as it is suspiciously the same as the "conversion", i.e. Ca = CaCO3*0.4: Such values are quite normal when dealing with such fiddling small values (same with Mg, if the value is tiny, don't bother looking for it or reporting it).

If this all seems wrong, remember what I said earlier about "uncomfortable facts".
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Brown beer
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:27 pm

Many thanks peebee! 👍 I'll stick to tap! I normally use hot tap from new combi boiler. Do you think this is OK or should I use cold and wait for propane burner to do its thing?

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:49 pm

Brown beer wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:27 pm
Many thanks peebee! 👍 I'll stick to tap! I normally use hot tap from new combi boiler. Do you think this is OK or should I use cold and wait for propane burner to do its thing?
I use cold, not water from the combi. Simply because you will treat the water with salt additions (<100ppm of Ca is perhaps asking for trouble, perhaps that should be <150 or <200ppm is asking for trouble if attempting to brew British beer). Water treatments are best done cold, in the case of Gypsum it dissolves more easily in cool water (that might be one of those "uncomfortable facts" - counter-intuitive - when dealing with water?).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Eric
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Eric » Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:52 pm

Without having a sample of your water analysed you will, forever, either be in doubt, denial or both of those. That said, if your water is as soft as it appears, any errors or deviations from the norm should be inconsequential. If you don't already have one, I would advise you buy a cheap TDS meter which will at the very least show if your water varies and if it does, by how much.

If we assume, and assume we must, that CaCO3 is the measurement of hardness, then your water's alkalinity is low enough not to warrant an RO system. Whatever alkalinity reduction might be required to accommodate a chosen grist can be simply achieved by any of a number of readily available acids. With very high levels of alkalinity, an RO system may be advantageous when making certain beer styles.

CaCO3 is used to represent various, often quite complicated, mineral components in water. Such measurements are not the amount of calcium carbonate present, but the amount of calcium carbonate that would have a similar effect as the component being measured. It is most frequently used for measurements of hardness and alkalinity, but not exclusively so.

A combi boiler gives a massive advantage. While gypsum dissolves better in colder liquor, it is often reluctant to dissolve whatever the circumstances and it is common practice to be added to the grains. It is also not unknown to be added in stages to the grainbed when sparging.

There are many ways to brew and brewing with waters of differing mineral levels will always benefit by choosing from the wide range of available options.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:18 pm

I dug this up that gives a fair overview of some of what I said (on "hardness"):

https://www.unitedutilities.com/globala ... _acc16.pdf

The bit:
The hardness is made up of two parts: temporary (carbonate) and …
… isn't entirely true and you will come across carbonate (and bicarbonate) "hardness" (or "temporary hardness") described as "alkalinity", but in most (all?) cases the two terms can be interchangeable (e.g. the popular Salifert alkalinity test measures in "KH" or "karbonate hardness"). I certainly found this "fuddle factor" confusing at the onset. True "hardness" ("permanent hardness") is almost entirely due to calcium and magnesium salts in the water.

If you seriously want to do your head in (you don't have to!) you might read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity
<EDIT: I don't know why the difference, I'll find out, but for a different article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity>
Last edited by PeeBee on Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:21 pm

If your calcium is 28 mg/L (ppm) and your total hardness is 70 mg/L (ppm), then your magnesium ppm must be zero.

Molecular Weight of CaCO3 = 100
Molecular Weight of Ca = 40
Molecular weight of Mg = 24.3

100/40 = 2.5
100/24.3 = 4.12

Total Hardness (as CaCO3) = 2.5*Ca + 4.12*Mg

2.5*28 = 70 = your total hardness. There is no room for magnesium here.

The real mystery is: What is your waters alkalinity level? Based upon cation and anion mEq balancing, I get 33 ppm of alkalinity as CaCO3 (which is 40.3 ppm as bicarbonate) for your water.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Brown beer » Sat Jan 04, 2020 9:30 am

Thanks for the help with magnesium value! Sadly fair bit of the above is a mystery to me at the moment but in time hopefully I'll get it. Can you recommend a simple brew water calculation? Simpler the better for me! Thanks

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:33 am

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:21 pm
If your calcium is 28 mg/L (ppm) and your total hardness is 70 mg/L (ppm), then your magnesium ppm must be zero. … <etc>
Well … I was going to post a terse reply, but that wont help anyone least of all "Brown Bear" who's thread this is. But would create plenty of fireworks no doubt (as might the following). So I'll try to explain a bit better …

The second post in this thread covers in a few words what your entire post tries to describe, both reaching the same outcome, but I attempt to mask the reasons as "uncomfortable facts" whereas you've gone for increasing the "fuddle factor" with loads more fuddle! Unfortunately us brewers seem to prefer "fuddle". Basically, you are reading way too much into that initial water analysis. I should say now, my opinions don't come from a qualified water chemist, but from someone who's been in the position of applying his school-days chemistry to a subject well over his head.

Let's start with "CaCO3" which was given a value of 70ppm. I assumed the value was probably describing "hardness" "as CaCO3". "As CaCO3" is a convenient descriptor like "kilometres per hour" ("kph") and not actually what CaCO3 is present. I can make this assumption based on knowing that is what water companies often report and from knowing water doesn't actually contain CaCO3. I'll borrow a snip from the much used "Bru'n Water" calculator to illustrate this, the figures come from analysis of my own water (and I think the calculator does this just to satisfy curiosity):
BWCapture1.JPG
Note zero "carbonate". Now what happens if the pH is a bit higher (only the pH is changed!):
BWCapture2.JPG
4ppm "carbonate". Cor!

Now look at "Calcium". Likewise, often recorded by water companies "as" so I've made that assumption here. I don't know why "calcium" isn't tested for explicitly (or "Magnesium"), perhaps someone will explain (to answer curiosity), probably because it is difficult to return a concise figure? The private analysis I had does have specific figures, perhaps I should treat them with suspicion? Anyway, with soft water the low figures don't help a lot. If Ca is "as" the figures will be calculated from the same source and trying to unpick the figures (as in "If your calcium is 28 mg/L (ppm) and your total hardness is 70 mg/L (ppm), then your magnesium ppm must be zero") is futile.

But at the end of the day, soft water is pretty much a blank canvas when treating it. If the pH predictions are a bit out with measured reality, adjust the "alkaline" salts (which hopefully doesn't include useless insoluble "chalk") for next time. With such soft water there is probably plenty of things affecting the final pH that isn't covered by the calculators (damned if I've been able to find them over the years).
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Silver_Is_Money
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:43 am

Your regional water authority likely adds chlorine and/or chloramines as biocide agents. To get rid of these you must add 1/4 of a crushed Campden tablet to every 20 Liters of your water and stir to dissolve. The removal effect is rapid. There is no need to wait any period of time after this treatment before proceeding.

Alkalinity needs are related to recipes and mash volumes. But your alkalinity is low enough for pale to brown ales or lagers. Leaving alkalinity aside to simplify things, and in full awareness that water mineralization is mainly a personal preference matter, and with full knowledge that there is no such thing as a magic water profile, as a general water treatment for your tap water I would give this a try for starters:

For every 30 Liters, add:
-----------------------------
1 gram of Gypsum
3.5 grams of Calcium Chloride
1 gram of Epsom Salt
3/4 grams of Table Salt

In rounded numbers this would give you a ballpark of:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50 ppm Sulfate
80-100 ppm Chloride (dependent upon the current hydration state of your CaCl2)
20 ppm Sodium
70 ppm Calcium
3 ppm Magnesium

For dryer and less malty beers, simply reverse the quantities of added Gypsum and Calcium chloride.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:06 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:33 am
I don't know why "calcium" isn't tested for explicitly (or "Magnesium"), perhaps someone will explain (to answer curiosity), probably because it is difficult to return a concise figure? The private analysis I had does have specific figures, perhaps I should treat them with suspicion? Anyway, with soft water the low figures don't help a lot. If Ca is "as" the figures will be calculated from the same source and trying to unpick the figures (as in "If your calcium is 28 mg/L (ppm) and your total hardness is 70 mg/L (ppm), then your magnesium ppm must be zero") is futile.
Likely there is indeed some level of magnesium in the OP's tap water, and the reported 28 ppm Ca is thereby a bit off, but it is convenient to conflate and thereby report Ca only, based upon total hardness being titrated to a CaCO3 standard (such as is often enough done, with this being an old school measure that never seems to die and go away).

The relationship of calcium and magnesium as to their relative ratio of total hardness is unique to every individual water source, but for fresh water the worldwide "average" relationship turns out to be that ~70% of total hardness comes from calcium, and ~30% comes from magnesium. But the formula which states that "Total Hardness as CaCO3 = 2.5(Ca) + 4.12(Mg)" is rock solid and not disputable.

Presuming that the OP's total hardness is indeed 70 ppm as (referenced to) CaCO3 we may now proceed to speculate that if the OP's tap water conforms to world norms (whereby we know that in reality this would be unlikely) then we can derive the following.

70% of 70 ppm total hardness = 49 ppm of total hardness from calcium
30% of 70 ppm total hardness = 21 ppm of total hardness from magnesium

We can then split the "Total Hardness as CaCO3 = 2.5(Ca) + 4.12(Mg)" formula into two parts and solve each for ppm Ca and ppm Mg respectively.

49 = 2.5 x Ca
21 = 4.12 x Mg

Doing this, and solving for Ca and Mg, yields:

Ca = 19.6 ppm
Mg = 5.1 ppm

As a quick check:
2.5(19.6) + 4.12(5.1) = 70 ppm total hardness

19.6 ppm Ca and 5.1 ppm Mg "may" be a better reflection of the OP's actual water analysis, with precision dependent upon how close to "average" fresh water it actually is.
Last edited by Silver_Is_Money on Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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PeeBee
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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:27 pm

I've predicted "fireworks" (crikey, they already started!) so I'd better have some further details available. These are examples from my water company's Web site. Firstly the "basic" analysis revolving around hardness. The values appear specific but are actually calculated from a single (unknown) source:
DwrCymruCapture1.JPG
Next is the detailed analysis, updated about once a year. Note no "calcium" or "magnesium" (as mentioned above, you might ask "why"):
DwrCymruCapture2.JPG
Finally a private analysis (the preceding ones are prepared by Dwr Cymru or "Welsh Water"):
PhoenixCapture1.JPG
Hope this helps your own analysis of analyses?
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:52 pm

PeeBee, I'm struggling to determine your point here. We can only base things upon the analysis that the OP has provided us to work with. Is your point that the OP's analysis is likely to be totally bogus, based upon large differences witnessed between your own water authority provided analysis and a private analysis of your water? I.E., is the point that all regional water authorities likely publish bogus water analysis values based solely upon discrepancies you have seen between private and government values for your water?
Developer of 'Mash Made Easy', a free and complete mash pH adjustment assistant spreadsheet

https://mashmadeeasy.yolasite.com/

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:18 pm

The "point" was made in the second post. Everything that follows just backs up that point.

For me Dwr Cymru put out quite a lot of water information, some water companies operating in Britain put out dire and minimal information. Note even Dwr Cymru don't indicate that their "hardness" figures are "as CaCO3" or "as Ca" which can be very misleading (especially as they do not publish alkalinity, or "temporary hardness", or carbonate/bicarbonate analysis, or Ca/Mg analysis). Most water companies here don't publish "alkalinity" but might publish "temporary hardness" or "carbonate hardness". The arcane hardness figures might not be updated much and will get out of sync with reality; disastrous if mistakenly relying on hardness "as Ca" for your calcium figure.

So the "point" is to reiterate the advise "be very careful what you read into the published figures". Especially when dealing with very low mineralised "soft" water. The reports are full of traps to catch the unwary, especially with soft water when time spent on trying to figure out the water chemistry is time wasted that could be spent brewing beer!

And my qualification? "Been there. Believed all that … ". Once!
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Ro or tap

Post by PeeBee » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:06 pm

Eric wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:52 pm
… I would advise you buy a cheap TDS meter which will at the very least show if your water varies and if it does, by how much. …
I follow this advice from Eric. "Cheap" TDS meters aren't really TDS meters but "Conductivity" meters, but for most water there is a close correlation between conductivity and total-dissolved-solids (TDS).

Mine has yet to prove its value (obstinately recording the same value - which I should see as "good"). But if Eric says they make a good indicator of when things vary (which isn't unusual for acid moorland "surface" water - which is what the OP seems to suggest is the case here too), I for one will "signup" for the advice. :D
Cask-conditioned style ale out of a keg/Cornie (the "treatise"): https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwzEv5 ... rDKRMjcO1g
Water report demystified (the "Defuddler"; removes the nonsense!): https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

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