New Hand Pump setup

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PeeBee
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 13, 2019 3:40 pm

MickJ wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:30 pm
Found these and they would be great when priming keg or cube, found them on a UK site at twice the Australian price...

https://www.kegland.com.au/blowtie-diap ... e-kit.html
I've had my eye on them for a while. But before they came on open market this lot were flogging them (bet that cheeses off Kegland - but if you deal with China you can forget about good manners): https://www.aliexpress.com/store/produc ... 5280PduKjr. I'll probably get one soon for "pressure transfers" as neither of my conicals are pressure rated and the Grainfather one has a 1psi maximum quoted so even my goto regulator (which I do use as a "spunding valve"), http://www.shako-online-sales.com/frl/regulators/NR200 (L2 variant), will be dodgy down that low.

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 13, 2019 4:04 pm

MickJ wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:38 am
… With this quote and rereading your "Cask Conditioned" I think I have got it...

Cask breathers are OK for pubs to keep the beer a few extra days at zero psi but the CO2 in the beer will fade away from the volumes of about 1.3 that it was primed at... …
That pretty well summarises it. But I only recommend priming for 1.3 volumes. Serving is done after venting back to 1.1 volumes (if you can be bothered with the venting - many Pubs don't bother, or don't do it well - it'll get to 1.1 volumes quick enough). I actually got the "1.1 volumes" from a CAMRA publication. Although CAMRA would chuck me in the Thames (or worse) for suggesting holding the beer at 1.1 volumes using 2psi of CO2.

I see now you are from Australia which explains your 3psi LPG regulator. We can't get them in the UK, and yours looks like a fixed one too. Do like the "CO2 board" you've got piccied.

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 13, 2019 4:16 pm

Copied from a thread on another forum. I was trying to explain why "diaphragm" is better than "poppet" for low pressures. Not as accurate as the links on those "bowtie spunding valves" you posted but sort of explains the same thing:
I feel I should explain why diaphragm devices are better than poppet devices.

A poppet is just a plug held in place by a spring. When the pressure gets too much for the spring to hold the poppet in place the poppet lifts and the pressure is vented until the spring can close the poppet again. The spring pressure is adjustable.

A diaphragm device also has a poppet holding back the pressure (confusion all round)! But the poppet is connected to the diaphragm and the spring applies to the diaphragm. Now the poppet lifts when pressure causes the diaphragm to bulge. The pressure applies its force to a much larger area which means the system is far more sensitive to changes.

A diagram explains this better (note "in" and "out" swap places in this diagram, because in the first the poppet is pushed off its seat and in the second, the diaphragm design, the poppet is pulled off its seat):
Poppet.jpg

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Wed May 15, 2019 10:23 am

PeeBee wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 4:04 pm
… I see now you are from Australia which explains your 3psi LPG regulator. We can't get them in the UK, …
Appears I am wrong. You can get wide range LPG regulators in the UK. They are just rare 'cos not many people would want them. 50-150mbar are ideal for hand-pump anyway, but I've just ordered a "BP1813" variant of my favoured LPG regulator (variable over 20-300mbar) for the odd occasion I might want it (https://www.clesse.co.uk/product/000780ar/ but without all the POL, etc "adapters").

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Thu May 16, 2019 2:27 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:23 am
Appears I am wrong. You can get wide range LPG regulators in the UK. They are just rare 'cos not many people would want them. 50-150mbar are ideal for hand-pump anyway, but I've just ordered a "BP1813" variant of my favoured LPG regulator (variable over 20-300mbar) for the odd occasion I might want it (https://www.clesse.co.uk/product/000780ar/ but without all the POL, etc "adapters").
Its a nice unit, but where do you get the non-POL version? Or is the POL nut just a screw in thing that attaches to the existing BSP adapter?

The wider range is interesting. I have found the 37-150mbar units to be very good at serving beer from lively growler kegs in lively environments (like camping), with standard 3/8 picnic taps (fast serve). But I could see potential in doubling the higher range, especially if you are dispensing through 3/16 line. 150mBar/2PSE wont push the beer through my standard 3/16 picnic tap.

I have also looked into higher pressure variable LPG regs, for actual dispense at usual PSI ranges (like 7-12 PSI), for some interesting kegerator applications (like a 9L corny in a husky fridge).
Kind of like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-196 ... 60&sr=8-19

or
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Continental-Ad ... 60&sr=8-83

but I would prefer to have actual BSP connectors, or know for sure that the POL connector fits into a more useful BSP fitting (which they dont typically say on the product description), like this one:
https://gasproducts.co.uk/gas-regulator ... lator.html

I have generally found that the dial is a practical alternative to toggling the pressure, than gauges etc. Especially when you are dispensing in odd circumstances like keg festivals/competitions and camping/outdoors.

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Thu May 16, 2019 7:22 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:27 pm
Its a nice unit, but where do you get the non-POL version? Or is the POL nut just a screw in thing that attaches to the existing BSP adapter? …
Those Clesse 50-150mbar units I considered was a great find because they are not encumbered with all that "POL" business. On other regulators the POL nuts might be on a sub-unit which screws onto a standard thread on the regulator, or they might not be that and they are built-in to the regulator. Who knows?

I sourced those Clesse units as a solution for serving up "cask-conditioned" type beer where 2psi is quite sufficient, I'm only beginning to explore the possibilities of those (hard to find) 20-300mbar regulators. These are pressures (up to 4.5PSI) that "non-LPG" regulators just cannot get close to. So I haven't even looked at "high-pressure propane regulators". They are for others (you?) to experiment with. The BSP one you've found looks interesting, but quite a price. Interesting that it is a Clesse one too. The others have POL connectors and I do not know if they are removeable.

BTW I quoted the BP1813 as the 20-300mbar variant of the 50-150mbar device. It isn't, I think "BP1813" just describes the body style (the 50-150mbar device is also "BP1813"!).


(EDIT: The 20-300mbar variant that I should get my hands on next week, came off eBay).

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Fri May 17, 2019 9:06 am

Best thing would be to email the manufacturer. Gut feeling is that if its using the same housing/chassis, then its the same part, and the POL nut etc, is a threaded fitting that screws into the BSP fitting on the chassis.

Manufacturer wont disclose this in the product description, as we are a very unintended customer for their product.

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Fri May 17, 2019 10:58 am

PeeBee
I noted that the 50-150mbar BP1813 is 0.725 psi to 2.17 psi but the
20-300mbar 0.29psi to 4.35 psi would be far better for Real Ale IMO....
So it's on my shopping list if you give a good report about the unit..

Had a look at pneumatic regulators and found a Shako at 0.7 psi to 28 psi for £59.33
http://www.shako-online-sales.com/URP?search=urpl
But that's cheaper than a Australian price of about £110 for a SMC regulator

Set up a home-made manometer to test foot of head of my LPG regulator and it didn't even move it a foot, so our LPG regs are less than 0.433 psi not the 3 psi that I found on the net..
My 0 to 15 pressure guage may be OK after all..
https://www.meriam.com/assets/eng/050-MHB-1.pdf

The manometer looks like it could be used to test for 2 psi in the Co2 lines as at 3 psi is 6.91 foot head and my garage/brewery/bar has a ceiling height of 8 foot 3 1/2 inches,
or I could look for a good quality low pressure guage...

Michael
Sunshine Coast
Queensland
Australia

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Fri May 17, 2019 11:25 am

Here's another Clesse high-pressure regulator at a more reasonable price:

https://gasproducts.co.uk/nova-comet-0- ... r-roi.html

It has all the inconvenient fittings (a "butane nut", guess that's as problematic as POL), but look like they simply screw into the regulator ports. But it does have the familiar adjustment dial. I'd speculate the ports are 1/4" BSPP, but can't say for sure. IMPORTANT: All these "high-pressure" regulators are still secondary regulators when it comes to attaching to CO2 cylinders. They have maximum input pressure ratings of 16BAR, whereas liquid CO2 cylinders are about 57BAR at room temperature, so you still need a suitable primary regulator.

Seems they make loads a variants to that "BP1813" design. I came across one rated 5-200mbar.

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Fri May 17, 2019 12:00 pm

MickJ wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 10:58 am
PeeBee
I noted that the 50-150mbar BP1813 is 0.725 psi to 2.17 psi but the
20-300mbar 0.29psi to 4.35 psi would be far better for Real Ale IMO....
So it's on my shopping list if you give a good report about the unit..

Had a look at pneumatic regulators and found a Shako at 0.7 psi to 28 psi for £59.33
http://www.shako-online-sales.com/URP?search=urpl
But that's cheaper than a Australian price of about £110 for a SMC regulator

50-150mbar is about ideal for hand-pumped "Real Ale" out of a Corny keg. 2psi gives about 1.1 volumes of CO2 at 14C, you don't want to be higher, but the minimum of 0.75psi should keep a Corny keg's lid sealed (read my "treatise" for ways of using mixed gas to get CO2 volumes below saturation - about 0.9 volumes - for really die-hard home-brew Real Ale fans). The mixed gas suggestion remains firmly untested by me. But the 20-300mbar variants (if you can find one, which I doubt!) do offer a bit of scope for mucking about, but to what end I can't say yet so will continue to recommend the 50-150mbar variant. I'm sure I came across a 5-200mbar variant too?

Beware of the other Shako regulators! It seems they are often designed for air compressors. I was messing with their NUR regulators and unless you make pretty complicated arrangements they eat through a CO2 bottle in no time! Not convinced? This is what I did to handle NUR regulators:
NUR Arrangements.jpg
(PS: This breaks loads of drawing "conventions". If drawing was still my job it would get me sacked! But my last drawings as a job were for Saddam Hussein's navy, pre-Gulf-War, and very nearly got me worse than sacked!)

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Sat May 18, 2019 9:28 am

PeeBee wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 3:40 pm
MickJ wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 1:30 pm
Found these and they would be great when priming keg or cube, found them on a UK site at twice the Australian price...

https://www.kegland.com.au/blowtie-diap ... e-kit.html
I've had my eye on them for a while. But before they came on open market this lot were flogging them (bet that cheeses off Kegland - but if you deal with China you can forget about good manners): https://www.aliexpress.com/store/produc ... 5280PduKjr. I'll probably get one soon for "pressure transfers" as neither of my conicals are pressure rated and the Grainfather one has a 1psi maximum quoted so even my goto regulator (which I do use as a "spunding valve"), http://www.shako-online-sales.com/frl/regulators/NR200 (L2 variant), will be dodgy down that low.
I have ordered a couple of these "blowtie diaphragm spunding valves", mainly for 1PSI transfers but also just to play about with. Also got a couple of their "regulators" in a similar design: Incredibly cheap (<£2 a unit).

I've probably got it wrong about the Chinese bunch on Aliexpress flogging the Kegland devices behind their backs. The "Chinese bunch" probably is Kegland! I've come across that scenario before now. The Chinese have got far more sophisticated in their "world domination" plans than doing some dirty tricks behind backs.

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Mon May 20, 2019 9:58 pm

Ordered the blowtie today also found the regulator

https://www.kegland.com.au/blowtie-diap ... e-kit.html

https://www.kegland.com.au/in-line-regulator.html

Been looking for LPG regulator 50-150mbar in Australia and the only specifications are in it's photo and no unit without the POL and hose, it's a REGO from the USA ......

Found the Cleese pdf but 2014/2015 page 9 of 21 and 16 of 21

Michael
Sunshine Coast
Queensland
Australia

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Mon May 20, 2019 10:00 pm

Found the Cleese pdf but 2014/2015 page 9 of 21 and 16 of 21

http://www.clesse.eu/com/images/PDF/Cle ... alogue.pdf
Sunshine Coast
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Tue May 21, 2019 2:39 pm

PeeBee wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 11:25 am
Here's another Clesse high-pressure regulator at a more reasonable price:

https://gasproducts.co.uk/nova-comet-0- ... r-roi.html

It has all the inconvenient fittings (a "butane nut", guess that's as problematic as POL), but look like they simply screw into the regulator ports. But it does have the familiar adjustment dial. I'd speculate the ports are 1/4" BSPP, but can't say for sure. IMPORTANT: All these "high-pressure" regulators are still secondary regulators when it comes to attaching to CO2 cylinders. They have maximum input pressure ratings of 16BAR, whereas liquid CO2 cylinders are about 57BAR at room temperature, so you still need a suitable primary regulator. …
Cor, these are a cheaper version (probably a misprint?).

https://www.bes.co.uk/propane-high-pres ... 2-bar-8812

The page even says the POL nut is removable, and the port threads are 1/4" BSPP. At a bit more money they are available in 1 and 4 BAR versions too, and the 1BAR jobbie can be had without POL nut. But they are secondary regulators, or second stage regulators (max input pressure is 16BAR).

My 20-300mbar regulator was a myth! I'll not be receiving it.

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Fri May 24, 2019 10:01 pm

My 20-300mbar regulator was a myth! I'll not be receiving it.
What I have found is although you can find a adjustable / variable regulator in a pdf, you can't necessarily find it for sale on the internet......
But the best I have found was ebay UK 0-2 Bar 0-29 psi £14.50......

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adjustable-P ... 1151693131

Amazon 0-10 psi made in the US by Nashfuel but only some sellers ship to Australia..
There are some copies on ebay from China also.......

https://www.amazon.com/0-10psi-Compact- ... ay&sr=8-54

Michael
Sunshine Coast
Queensland
Australia

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