cornies, polykegs.... definitive setup thread

[Jim]

Nice Barneey. I've made this thread sticky for now, but if it's OK with you, I will make an article out of it to put in the knowledge base once discussion has ironed out everything we need to put in there.

[barneey]

No problems with me, just use what ever bits you see fit - the more knowledge there is out there the better.

Cheers

[Fil]

if useful id be happy to write a serving without foam pressure balanced by thin line/flow control device bit up for approval, i seem to have written it out a dozen times or so already

[bobsbeer]

I've got my keg, how do I get my beer in? -

Unscrew the spear and pour / syphon beer into keg

An alternative way of filling and just as easy is to fill with the spear fitted via a coupler with the beer and gas non returns removed. Just attach you siphon tube to a piece of 3/8th beer line and attach that to the jg fitting on the beer out coupler and siphon it in. With the polykegs you will be able to see the level, but on SS kegs you need to watch the level in your bucket. But any excess will overflow via the gas out so not a major problem.

[bigdave]

if useful id be happy to write a serving without foam pressure balanced by thin line/flow control device bit up for approval, i seem to have written it out a dozen times or so already

Yes please!!

[barneey]

Dont forget one of the biggest plus points with traditional kegs is being able to store at very low pressure / dispence with VERY low pressure if needed - almost cask like.

[Heron1952]

Gas Regulators
Barneey post says that gas suppliers gas needs a primary And a secondary regulator. Is this to step down high pressure 200+ psi and then to further step down to the requirement of the particular beer and keg?

If so how are people using mig welder regulators? They seem much cheaper than pub gas regulators.
At least one eBay seller seems to be claiming that welding regulators are unsafe because they do not have relief valves, is this true???

Do home bar gas users use just co2 or co2 mixes with nitrogen?
Lots of question, sorry I really have done a forum search

[Fil]

Gas Regulators
Barneey post says that gas suppliers gas needs a primary And a secondary regulator. Is this to step down high pressure 200+ psi and then to further step down to the requirement of the particular beer and keg?

If so how are people using mig welder regulators? They seem much cheaper than pub gas regulators.
At least one eBay seller seems to be claiming that welding regulators are unsafe because they do not have relief valves, is this true???

Do home bar gas users use just co2 or co2 mixes with nitrogen?
Lots of question, sorry I really have done a forum search

I used a welders reg very happily with corny's u have a PRV on the lid or at worst via a tspoon handle on the gas in poppet of the keg and up inside the disconnect so the lack of one on the reg is irrelevant. if using sankey kegs however it may be more of an issue as the sankey kegs dont have prvs afaik.. so a prv on the reg to depressurise the keg would be an asset.

you need a 2ndary reg/s when you want to provide 2 or more different gas pressures generally for dispensing 2 or more different styles of beer with different condition levels.

if with a single keg or kegs of a similar condition level you only need a primary reg to serve as u just split off using Y or T pieces from the post regulator gas line.

[steambrew]

Could this form be expanded to include pins as people are selling them on the web ,how do you prime and dispense and add co2 etc

[barneey]

used a welders reg very happily with corny's u have a PRV on the lid or at worst via a tspoon handle on the gas in poppet of the keg and up inside the disconnect so the lack of one on the reg is irrelevant. if using sankey kegs however it may be more of an issue as the sankey kegs dont have prvs afaik.. so a prv on the reg to depressurise the keg would be an asset.

The American imported ones do have the gas valve on them. Not strictly necessary but a nice feature to have.

[Heron1952]

All helpful stuff but I'm still bit confused.
So far as I can see unless I want to get clever with Guiness clone Stours or Smooth flow like beers I don't need mixed gas.
Many e-bay primary regulators are for mixed gas so no good, ????
Some e bay primary regulators are single step/ stage down to 35 ish psi so are these OK for beers or lagers?
And as Fil says no need for a secondary regulator if the same pressure is OK or acceptable for 2
Or a Barneeys post said still need one secondary to fine tune ??
There are cheap ish e bay regulators with a primary , and a secondary with a single gauge are the going to do any sort of a job.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CO2-BOTTLEMOU ... 257f3eb6fc

Or do I need a good primary on its own on one keg and the add a secondary if I need different pressure on another keg?

[Fil]

As promised a guide to serving from kegs.. more of a ramble on how i do it but i hope its helpfull.

draft #1 open to comments..

i will focus on corny's as thats what i use, i will highlight any differences with comercial/polykegs where i am aware, but i could miss a few aspects thru ignorance. so please edit/correct me when/if needed.

The ideal dispensing system will allow you to control the temperature of your beer and the pressure you maintain the keg at. And plenty of people concentrate on setting up the best control system possible for temp and pressure but pour foam from the tap. I know i did.. The reason for this is generally that the keg pressure isnt balanced by either thin restricting line or a flow control device and when its released from the tap the massive drop in pressure helps stimulate a massive foam out leaving you with a small amount of flat beer topped with a pint of foam when poured.

foam-outs (not a technical term but descriptive) can be stimulated by any dramatic change in state of the beer, it can be caused by turbulence in a kinked beerline or due to cold beer being poured into a warm glass, but the most common reason is a massive pressure drop at the tap. and its a very easy problem to solve.

Flow control taps and devices..
I was lucky? to get flow control taps fitted to the ebay font i use, and these are great for restricting the pressure on bitters and beers that are not highly conditioned beers served at keg pressures upto 6-8psi.
If the beer is served at a higher pressure i find the flow control taps impossible to set, and every pint involves a tweak which never is successful in finding the sweet spot.
So for higher conditioned beers another method is needed..

Micro bore 3/16" beerline
I cant find the source any more ( a US kegging site/page linked to off a northern brewer page..) but it provided the info that the micro bore beerline will restrict pressure at a rate of 1-2psi per foot length for lengths upto about 12ft, closer to 1psi for the first foot and closer to 2 psi by foot 12 iirc.
So if serving beer with a keg pressure of 10psi a length of about 4-5ft should drop the keg pressure to a minimum (1-2psi) by the time it hits the tap.

Temperature
If you can keep your kegs in a keg fridge or kegorator your lucky and it should be as simple as setting and leaving. the good ol conditioning chart comes in here again but bear in mind its a guide u can tweak either way u like, and i think the americans like their beer with a bit more fizz ..

However if like me you dont have a keg fridge finding a cool stable temperature spot to store the kegs is pretty important as the beer wont like fluctuations in temp and it will play havoc with the serving.

insulating the kegs to keep temp fluctuations off the beer is a good idea and if not the coolest spot standing in a gravel tray kept topped up with water will help chill thru evaporation.

But if you cant keep the kegs cool emough to serve you may need to look at a shelf chiller, I use one during the summer as my kegspot while shaded and insulated does warm up with the ambient temp in the summer.

With kegs stored closer to ambient temp its not as simple as setting the keg fridge and leaving as the conditions your beer is sat in will change with the seasons (assuming u have insulated to keep daily fluctuations off the kegs). and serving is more of a balancing act. the condition chart is a good place to start so check the keg temp check the chart and see what pressure it indicates as optimum for your beer.
and bear that in mind. Now you will no doubt sus out your own psi guide lines for the beers you brew but start of using mine for now and tweak accordingly through your own experience,
i set my beers up with pressures of
2-4psi for had pump emulation attempts
4-8psi for bitters/ales
12-15psi lager/gingerbeer and other fizzies..

now if the chart indicated pressure is higher than what i suggest its likely your beer will loose condition during attached for serving, and will REQUIRE a vent off of the excess pressure built up between serving sessions, the loss will be gradual and hardly noticable especially if u drink a keg quickly, but if it becomes noticeable its easy to correct by simply whacking up the psi to re-force condition again.. (dont try serving under hi pressure tho)

With kegs exposed to ambient temps as the temps drop you may find your beers become over conditioned, especially following a sharp frost.. If so you can remove the excess condition by shaking and venting the keg while off gas, shaking to pull the co2 from suspension and venting to remove it, repeat as many times as necessary, if over conditioned over a week or more u may need to leave it a few hours between shake and vent sessions.. if u pull out too much condition u can always put a bit back in co2 is cheap..

so to recap,, without a kegorator vent the keg b4 you start serving a session to ensure its the set pressure u serve at and not an inflated pressure due to condition loss between sessions.
and as the weather cools down you can run the risk of over conditioning, and conversely when the weather warms up you stand to loose condition in the keg while its attached at serving pressure, both easy to solve. and not to be scared of.

Secondary Chilling..

come summer months no ammount of insulation can keep the ambient heat off the kegs and when the keg storage temp rises above 13-14C the beer starts to need some secondary chilling, the most common solution is a shelf chiler which when used for home use needednt be turned on for hours to be effective, ive found for pouring a few pints for myself of an eveneing running the chiller for 30-40mins chills the waterbath down to close to 0C which is as far as it will chill and thats sufficient for pouring an evenings beer and retain enough chill to cut down the time needed the following evening.. when company is round im less cheap and just turn it on

Other alternatives are the jockey box, a cold box mod to contain ice and a similar coil to a shelf chiller to chill the beer. Or standing the keg in a bowl with ice, as u draw from the keg bottom if u chill the bottom of the keg your chilling the beer ur drinking by standing it in ice.

[Fil]

All helpful stuff but I'm still bit confused.
So far as I can see unless I want to get clever with Guiness clone Stours or Smooth flow like beers I don't need mixed gas.
Many e-bay primary regulators are for mixed gas so no good, ????
Some e bay primary regulators are single step/ stage down to 35 ish psi so are these OK for beers or lagers?
And as Fil says no need for a secondary regulator if the same pressure is OK or acceptable for 2
Or a Barneeys post said still need one secondary to fine tune ??
There are cheap ish e bay regulators with a primary , and a secondary with a single gauge are the going to do any sort of a job.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CO2-BOTTLEMOU ... 257f3eb6fc

Or do I need a good primary on its own on one keg and the add a secondary if I need different pressure on another keg?

get a welders reg with a nice simple knob to twist the screws to tune on the 'proper' kit are a pita, the thing to look for tho is a gauge that reads in psi and has small increments on the dial, large increments going up by 4 or 5 psi per notch will make fine tuning the co2 supply quite tricky, look for one with 2psi increments on the dial.

[Heron1952]

Thanks so to start off with my first keg I should find a single stage primary regulator either a welders one or a pub one with a pressure release valve.
If is a pub one I should make sure it's not a mixed gas one as they a different to co2 primary regulator.
( cornies don't need a PRV valve because they have there own)
Later on I can buy secondary regulators one for each keg with beer or lager needing a different pressure as described in Fils excellent guide.
Sorry to go one but I want to get my first purchase right.

[Brighteyebeer]

Thanks so to start off with my first keg I should find a single stage primary regulator either a welders one or a pub one with a pressure release valve.
If is a pub one I should make sure it's not a mixed gas one as they a different to co2 primary regulator.
( cornies don't need a PRV valve because they have there own)
Later on I can buy secondary regulators one for each keg with beer or lager needing a different pressure as described in Fils excellent guide.
Sorry to go one but I want to get my first purchase right.

Hi - Heron, the major preliminary is to determine your source of CO2 cylinders. No point buying a welding reg, then finding you can only get disposable or Sodastream cylinders locally. Just a thought - apols if you're already on top of it.

Cheers, Chris