New Hand Pump setup

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MickJ
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New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Thu May 09, 2019 12:21 pm

Just setting up my hand pump in it’s new wall mount stand and doing a hot sodium percarbonate
clean to be followed with a rinse then star san tomorrow before it’s first use..

Can anybody tell me more about this Gaskell & Chambers pump, age, beer style etc..

In the photo the chrome end is a shut off valve that must be turned ¼ before pulling 300ml of beer -
is this classed as a sparkler..

Do I still need a check valve, as with the cleaning run there are only a few drips returning to the bucket when the hose is out of the water..

I have set up a LPG reg at about 3 psi with a 15 psi pressure gauge also to be first tested tomorrow..

What is the longest time I can keep beers in the fridge using hand pump and gravity in either corny kegs or plastic cubes..

Will be in the UK (West Gloucestershire) all of JUNE and looking for a porcelain handle and any other parts I may need.

Thanks
Michael



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Jim
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by Jim » Thu May 09, 2019 8:37 pm

I'm not familiar with that type of pump, but as long as the pressure in the keg is kept at 3psi or less, you should be OK without a check valve; essentially the LPG reg is acting as a cask breather. Didn't quite follow what you meant by the 15 psi valve - is that just going between the gas bottle and the LPG reg ? You might have trouble with the corny keg lid sealing properly at such a low pressure though (you can get soft lid gaskets to help with that).

As long as you don't let air into the container the beer will keep several weeks at least.
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MickJ
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Sat May 11, 2019 6:07 am

Jim
Thanks for the quick reply

"I'm not familiar with that type of pump"
Was hoping a few others would see the photo also

"pressure in the keg is kept at 3psi or less, you should be OK without a check valve"
First pour last night got quite a few drips even with the chrome shut off valve closed so yes will get one!

"essentially the LPG reg is acting as a cask breather"
the LPG reg works fine


"Didn't quite follow what you meant by the 15 psi valve"
Just a Chinese 0 to 15 psi air pressure guage between the LPG reg and keg to see what psi the LPG reg was giving me, but it didn't move the dial so redundant now..

"You might have trouble with the corny keg lid sealing properly at such a low pressure though"
Will keep an eye on that, only tested it at 10 psi

Will keep on finding out about the pump and where I can get a porcelain handle .....

Michael
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PeeBee
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Sat May 11, 2019 9:20 am

MickJ wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:07 am
… "pressure in the keg is kept at 3psi or less, you should be OK without a check valve"
First pour last night got quite a few drips even with the chrome shut off valve closed so yes will get one! …
Jim was a bit rash there: Put your cask higher than the pump without a check valve and all your beer will pour out of the pump on to the floor. But if the cask is lower than the pump you can rely on gravity and a bit of friction in the pump and beer lines to keep the beer in the cask. But a "check valve" (it's a demand valve not a check valve, but I'm getting bored of saying that now) is a good idea anyway.

The trouble with demand valves is they can allow quite fizzy beer to be served on hand-pump. That's happening more and more now as unscrupulous "craft beer brewers" insist on serving their overly-fizzy wares on hand-pump. It's a sham to deceive drinkers. Your fine old pump will probably complain (judder, knock and bang) if subject to fizzy beer.
MickJ wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:07 am
… "essentially the LPG reg is acting as a cask breather"
the LPG reg works fine …
The LPG regulator is doing more for you than you might expect. The very slight pressure they maintain keeps the beer in condition for a good while. Essential for home-brew which isn't going to be all drunk in a matter of a few days (hours?). Cask breathers (zero psi regulators if you like) will not retain much CO2 condition in home-brew.

You talk of 3psi so obviously have a "variable" LPG regulator. 3psi is a bit high so either your Chinese gauge is a bit naff or you don't have a UK approved regulator. UK variable LPG regulators are limited to 150mbar (about 2psi), usually operating at 50-150mbar. Fixed LPG regulators in the UK are about 37mbar, not enough pressure to lift beer out of a half empty Corny keg.
MickJ wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:07 am
… "You might have trouble with the corny keg lid sealing properly at such a low pressure though"
Will keep an eye on that, only tested it at 10 psi …
Sealing the lid on Corny kegs can be a headache. All mine need 5-10psi to seal them on filling, but don't "crack" open until pressure drops below zero psi. Another plus for using LPG regulators and not "breathers". Hand-pumps can reduce the pressure in a keg to <0 psi and pull air past the lid seal (or "gas in" disconnect post) so be sure not to forget to switch on the CO2 before serving.
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Jim
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by Jim » Sat May 11, 2019 9:56 am

PeeBee wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 9:20 am
MickJ wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:07 am
… "pressure in the keg is kept at 3psi or less, you should be OK without a check valve"
First pour last night got quite a few drips even with the chrome shut off valve closed so yes will get one! …
Jim was a bit rash there: Put your cask higher than the pump without a check valve and all your beer will pour out of the pump on to the floor. But if the cask is lower than the pump you can rely on gravity and a bit of friction in the pump and beer lines to keep the beer in the cask. But a "check valve" (it's a demand valve not a check valve, but I'm getting bored of saying that now) is a good idea anyway..............
The pics show the keg on the floor below the pump. However, a quick google shows that 3psi can create 6 foot of head (if I've got it right, which is questionable!) https://www.convertunits.com/from/psi/to/foot+of+head

I've not used an LPG reg myself so was going from the large numbers of people who have posted that they use them as a cheap cask breather. Clearly you DO need a check valve if you use an LPG - so not really a saving over a cask breather after all!
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Eric
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by Eric » Sat May 11, 2019 12:31 pm

MickJ wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:07 am

Will keep on finding out about the pump and where I can get a porcelain handle .....

Michael
You might look here for a handle. I'm not sure if length is standard, but have found them helpful on the telephone in the past.
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Sat May 11, 2019 2:37 pm

But those variable LPG regs are awesome ... I bought mine as a cheap cask breather and ended up using it for all sorts of stuff (portable growler gas in, purging kegs, topping up headspace in the FV, all sorts of stuff)

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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Sat May 11, 2019 3:53 pm

TheSumOfAllBeers wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 2:37 pm
But those variable LPG regs are awesome ... I bought mine as a cheap cask breather and ended up using it for all sorts of stuff (portable growler gas in, purging kegs, topping up headspace in the FV, all sorts of stuff)
Yeap!

But I think we should put "cheap" in context here: Breathers are "cheap" to make, but cost a fortune. LPG regulators are pretty sophisticated, after all they are intended for explosive gases and everyone wants something they can trust for that; but to buy a LPG regulator, well, they're cheap! It's all down to "supply and demand" and loads more people want an LPG regulator for their caravan than landlords wanting a breather for their pub.

These are the ones I use, and I think "TheSumOfAllBeers" uses them as well? BES sell them too. They have the advantage of BSP threaded connections, not nightmarish "POL" connectors often found on LPG regulators: https://gasproducts.co.uk/gas-regulator ... ooder.html

(EDIT: Always forget this important warning when recommending these regulators: They should be considered "secondary" regulators and never attached directly to a CO2 cylinder - always have a "primary" regulator for that. The LPG regulators have a 16BAR maximum input restriction.)
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by TheSumOfAllBeers » Sun May 12, 2019 3:27 pm

Yup. That’s the unit I have. And as peebee says, there is the added confidence that comes with a unit that needs the extra safety checks .


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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Mon May 13, 2019 2:49 am

Eric

Found a place that makes the "TRADITIONAL ENGLISH PUB HUNTSMEN SCENE DESIGNS"
and they post worldwide..

https://www.chrisastonceramics.co.uk/be ... ndles.html

But at 23.50 each it's more than Harry Mason's that look the same for 13.25.....

Harry Mason also have demand valve ( but they call them check valve ) and a few other things I may need,
SWMBO said the drive from The Forest Of Dean to Harry's is about 1 1/2 hours so a day trip would be OK

Thanks for that
Michael
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MickJ
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Mon May 13, 2019 3:38 am

PeeBee

Demand valve is fixed on shopping list
The LPG regulator is doing more for you than you might expect. The very slight pressure they maintain keeps the beer in condition for a good while. Essential for home-brew which isn't going to be all drunk in a matter of a few days (hours?). Cask breathers (zero psi regulators if you like) will not retain much CO2 condition in home-brew.
With this quote and rereading your "Cask Conditioned" I think I have got it...

Cask breathers are OK for pubs to keep the beer a few extra days at zero psi but the CO2 in the beer will fade away from the volumes of about 1.3 that it was primed at...

But we as home brewers can use LPG regulator to keep the beer primed at 1.3 and fresh until the keg is empty, but how long is " a good while " for say a mild or a bitter...


Now my LPG reg that I said was 3psi is what the internet said they were, but your variable regulator is what I want now so it's also on the shopping list...
The 0 to 15 psi air pressure guage was just to be able see a pressure reading but it don't work..

The 90 bend on the left is to CO2 bottle
2 on right for different pressures to each keg if required

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Jim
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by Jim » Mon May 13, 2019 6:45 am

Michael, you're right about the beer losing condition with a cask breather. I have an arrangment of gas taps so I can recharge the barrel to about 6psi between sessions. It sounds like the variable LPG regs will do that without the extra pipework.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on as you build your setup, so please keep us up to date with it. :)
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MickJ
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by MickJ » Mon May 13, 2019 1:30 pm

Found these and they would be great when priming keg or cube, found them on a UK site at twice the Australian price...

https://www.kegland.com.au/blowtie-diap ... e-kit.html

"The BlowTie has been made completely differently taking advantage of a diaphragm to actuate the sealing mechanism that will release pressure from the pressure vessel with much more accurate control pressure."

I had the idea of having 4 plastic 20 Litre water containers in the fridge to serve Real Ale ( our home brew version ) that's why I keep asking how long it would keep at about 3 psi and 8 to 10 *c..
Supplied by one LPG reg to the container lids fitted with corny gas posts than served with the hand pump with friends or gravity when I need a beer..
If it needs to be at a certain pressure a guage to look at would be great..

Michael
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Trefoyl
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by Trefoyl » Mon May 13, 2019 2:13 pm

Jim wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:45 am
Michael, you're right about the beer losing condition with a cask breather. I have an arrangment of gas taps so I can recharge the barrel to about 6psi between sessions. It sounds like the variable LPG regs will do that without the extra pipework.

I'm looking forward to seeing how you get on as you build your setup, so please keep us up to date with it. :)
I use an LP regulator for my corny keg on my beer engine, but I bought a cask breather last summer assuming it was the same thing, only “official” or genuine article, as it were. I haven’t tried to use it and now it looks like I never will.
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Re: New Hand Pump setup

Post by PeeBee » Mon May 13, 2019 3:20 pm

MickJ wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:49 am
… Harry Mason also have demand valve ( but they call them check valve ) …
They do don't they. Here's the ones I use and they cover their butts by calling them check valves AND demand valves.

https://rlbs.ltd.uk/check-valve-high-pe ... valve.html
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