First Lager - Watery

[Waffty]

Hi,

Made up my first lager around 4 weeks ago & whilst it's ok, it's not how I'd like it to be i.e it's kinda watery on the mouth feel & not as crisp as I'd like i.e I have to roll it around on my tongue to find the flavours, as opposed to it being crisp, if that makes sense?

Dispensing temp was fine, as I pumped it through my flash cooler.

I used a Dudley & Gornal Ales 1.8Kg lager kit (made by Muntons), added 500g of Muntons spray dried light extract & 500g of brewing sugar, I steeped a Brupaks Lager flavour pack (three tea bags of hops & grains) & pitched the whole thing with Safe lager yeast. Fermented at 16 degrees for 10 days. Added finnings & dropped the team again for 3 days & dropped it into the keg.

Force carbonated after week 3 & tried it on week 4.

Any ideas on how to get that crips/full bodied tast from a 1.8Kg kit, or should I look at the premium range (Pride of Yorkshire etc)?

Thanks.
Darren

[sparky Paul]

I'm not familiar with the D&G kit, but the Cooper's kits are very popular and always work well for me - they already have a strong hoppy flavour that is a good base to work from. 50/50 spraymalt and glucose is also fine, and should make a perfectly good lager of a modest ABV. If you are looking for the alcohol 'bite' of something 5% ABV or so, you could try adding another 500g of light spraymalt.

Personally, I think you will struggle to get the lager taste you are looking for from a kit without adding whole hops, and lots of them. The teabag things are a nice idea, but I've done the Brupaks kits that come with them and I don't think the effect is as good as using whole, fresh hops. The other thing is that you haven't got the same control over what you are adding.

If you like the hoppy European Pilsner type lagers, I think that adding 30g of Saaz hops to the Coopers is a good start. You may find you want to add more in future brews, but I wouldn't add any more than that to start with. Hallertauer is another good variety for lagers, but the Saaz is the classic hop for Pilsner type lagers.

You have probably seen my preferred method (from an original suggestion by DaaB) before in other threads, but here it is again. After emptying the can into the fermenter, rinse it out twice with boiling water (2 cans full) into a pan. Add 1/3 of the hops and boil for 15 minutes, regularly stirring any froth back in. Then take the pan off the boil and add the rest of the hops, leave to steep for 20-30 minutes, then strain the liquor into the fermenter through a sanitised sieve.

I always PET bottle for a good level of carbonation, the acid CO2 also helps add that commercial lager 'bite', but a cornie with forced carbonation should be good too. If you are using a plastic keg, I'm not sure it will maintain a high enough level of carbonation to give the same effect.

Hope this helps!

[verno]

I have just started fermenting a Coopers Pilsner (started Sunday). I didn't add any hops as yet as this is my 2nd brew and I am building up. In my first brew I only added the kit and table sugar.

In this one I used 500g Light spray malt and 300g of brewing sugar (as suggested on the tin). I also added some yeast nutrient to help the process. It does say add 8g of priming sugar per litre which sounds high, but maybe that makes up for the slightly lower 300g in fermenting?

I will let you know how it tastes in a couple of weeks and how it compares to the first batch.

[sparky Paul]

It does say add 8g of priming sugar per litre which sounds high, but maybe that makes up for the slightly lower 300g in fermenting?

The priming sugar is mainly to give you the carbonation, but it will add a little alcohol. 8g per litre does sound quite high, but I add 4 tsp to 2 litre PET bottles, and that works out about the same - a teaspoon of sugar is about 4g. At that level, bottles will need at least a few hours in the fridge before opening, they will be very lively.

The Cooper's lager kits are about the best around IMHO, and I don't think you will be disappointed, even without any additions.

[Waffty]

Hope this helps!

It certainly does, so thanks for taking the time to explain.

I think I'll stick to the same kit for completeness, but will deffo go for the additional hops option & possibly a 'whole' spray malt option.

As the Brupak flavour kit does seem to add aroma but not the bitterness, which from what you're saying, will only come from boiling the hops.

That said, in all fairness, the flavour pack, does give you the option of adding bitterness but I was under the impression that the kit would have enough.

Anyways, I've got enough info now to plan my next lager brew, so many thanks again.

Darren.

[sparky Paul]

The kits are usually okay on the bitterness, but they seem to lose some of the hop flavour and even more of the aroma during the process of concentrating them into an extract. The method above is trying to add some of this flavour and aroma back by emulating the late and 'flame-out' hop additions which are largely responsible for those aspects.

You may need to play with the timings and quantities, but it's a method which works well for me.

I think I'll stick to the same kit for completeness, but will deffo go for the additional hops option & possibly a 'whole' spray malt option.

I don't go over 75% spraymalt when doing a lager kit.

It's down to personal taste, but I find that without the glucose/brewing sugar, lagers turn out a bit heavy compared to commercial lagers, with too much 'mouthfeel'. Most of the pilsner type lagers are quite light in that respect.

[pongobilly]

is the yeast any good with these coopers kits, what yeast do they use

[sparky Paul]

is the yeast any good with these coopers kits, what yeast do they use

Safale. I always use the supplied yeast with Cooper's kits, it works very well. I once read on a Aussie forum that the lagers are supplied with a Safale/Saflager mix, but I'm not convinced about that...

[maxashton]

You won't get the lager crispness without cold fermentation using lager yeast. I believe the Cooper's kits use proper lager yeast, but most people don't have facilities to support fermentation at between 8 and 12 c or whatever they recommend for their particular strain.

As above, bottling will work way better than kegging unless you've got a cornelius keg.

[sparky Paul]

The Cooper's lager kits recommend fermentation at ale temperatures, so I don't think it's a proper lager yeast.

That said, with additional hopping with lots of Saaz, you can make a very passable attempt at a commercial style lager. OH is quite picky with lagers, she doesn't like ales, and she's quite happy to guzzle the Cooper's.

[pongobilly]

That said, with additional hopping with lots of Saaz, you can make a very passable attempt at a commercial style lager. OH is quite picky with lagers, she doesn't like ales, and she's quite happy to guzzle the Cooper's.

does this mean using the 30g of saaz then 1/3 boil and 2/3 steep[/quote]

[sparky Paul]

does this mean using the 30g of saaz then 1/3 boil and 2/3 steep

10g boil, 20g steep - total 30g used.

I reckon it's a good start for the Cooper's kits, but you may want to adjust quantities later depending upon your own tastes and the quality of the hops you are using.

You could also try dry hopping which is easier, but the effect is different, and again it's down to personal taste.