Altering Muntons Yorkshire Bitter

[niall]

Due to the arrival of our firstborn recently my brewing (not to mention my sleep) has been somewhat curtailed. I'm looking to do a quickish brew with a can of Muntons Yorkshire Bitter that's fallen into my lap. I'm not altogether sure I'm going to like this kit, although this is purely based on my brew of Cooper's Bitter which was my least favourite brew yet. It was a much darker, sweeter brew than I expected although that may be due to my adding an extra can of John Bull malt extract. I normally use light or extra light spraymalt.

What I'm hoping to do with this kit is to produce something a little lighter in colour, with a stronger hop flavour and aroma. I presume there's nothing I can do to alter the kit's bitterness. I'm currently really enjoying styles similar to Bitter & Twisted and Deuchar's IPA. While I don't expect to be able to clone these with this kit as a basis I would like to nudge it a little in the direction of an English IPA or an APA. I have plenty of Light DME, LME, the "usual" grains and various different hops such as EKG, Fuggles, Galena, Cascade, Bramling X, Willamette etc.

A mini mash is probably out timewise but I don't mind steeping a little grain.

Suggestions?

[niall]

Adding specialty grains may take the colour a little darker than you'd like

Of course - I should have thought of that - I've got some Low Colour Pale Malt, maybe I'll add a little.

If you want to increase bitternes get some goldings or fuggles (they are a safe bet for a first try), add around 5-10 grams to the wort you have made (if you havent just add a drop of extract to 2L of water) and boil them for about 30 mins, you could add a further 5 grams for the last 10 mins to add hop flavour (but not bitternes).

I hadn't thought of boiling up a little wort and adding to it, I might do that. I'll probably use some Cascade or Willamette to get some flavour and aroma in. I like that "citrusy" aroma. I think Bitter & Twisted uses Stryian Goldings but i don't have any right now. I suppose I could always dry hop to get some more aroma into it.

Cheers DaaB!

[steve_flack]

Pale malt needs mashing as it has no diastatic power but you could simmer it in some diastatic malt for 30 mins.

Huh? Pale Malt is a Diastatic malt. Otherwise how does it convert it's own starches when mashed in beers where it is the only malt? It does need mashing though as otherwise it will just add starch to your beer.

[Jim]

Sorry I had a brain fart. .........

After what we've been through these last few days you're entitle to one, DaaB!

[niall]

Sorry I had a brain fart.

You're not the only one; first of all I say that I don't have time to do any mashing for this batch and in the next breath I suggest adding a malt that needs mashing

[BitterTed]

What constitutes a partial mash, traditionaly as far as i'm concerned it's brewing with specialty malts and unmalted adjuncts by simmering in diastatic malt however the American forums seem to consider it to be what I would call a mini mash, using all available malts but in a smaller quantity and adding this to an extract based wort.

Its horses for courses but i'm writing an article on partial mashing for JHBF and trying to decide which line to take.

Being American, obviously I think that using available malts in smaller quantities and adding to extract is a mini-mash. I'm don't recall seeing anyone suggest the use of adjuncts with specialty grain though. Adjuncts, for the most part, should be added to a malt with diastatic power, not steeped, specialty grain though can simply be steeped to extract it's goodness without being mashed.
With that said, I have always viewed these two to be almost the same, here's why. If you steep cara malt at 66ºC for 30 mins or do a mini-mash at 66ºC for 45-60 min, isn't it really the same, just a shorter amount of time? And in reality, the mini-mash could be conducted in 30 min also, and you would get conversion of starches, so in effect, they are the same, just using less grain or grain types.

[niall]

Well here's what I did in the end:

First off I decided not to bother mashing or steeping any grains. I boiled just over a gallon of water and decided that the brew length would be 30 minutes since the Muntons already has bittering hops of some description included.

Added 40g Willamette at 30 mins without adding any extract.
At 15 minutes I added 500 gr Extra Light DME and 500gr Wheat DME.
At 5 minutes I added 30gr Cascade.
At 0 minutes I added the Muntons kit.
I had added both hop additions in bags and I decided to put the Cascade into the fermenter.
I also added a starter of White Labs 004 Irish Ale. I guess this is going to be a cross between a Bitter/APA so it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

[BitterTed]

Sounds delicious niall !!!

[BitterTed]

Adjuncts, for the most part, should be added to a malt with diastatic power, not steeped, specialty grain

Hence the technique of steeping (the adjuncts) in a diastatic malt extract, something that I believe (from discussions with other US brewers) is not commonly available in the US . The diastatic extract negates the need for a full mash with a base malt. This technique is refered to as partial mash where as the likes of Palmer describe a partial mash as what I would call a mini mash.

Ahh yes, diastatic malt extract, forgive me, I forgot all about that , as you pointed out, we don't see that much( I have never seen it) .

[niall]

I bottled a six pack of this when I was transferring to secondary and I tried one last night after just a week in the bottle. It's got a nice level of bitterness and a really fresh citrussy aroma. This is something I've been lacking in some of my beers and I'm wondering what made the difference:

1. I used more hops, I guess that one is pretty straightforward, but I didn't use drastically more.
2. I boiled the hops in water for 45 minutes. From what I've read this leads to better hop utilisation as against boiling in the wort for the whole period (bearing in mind I was boiling about 8 litres and topping up the fermenter with cold water).
3. I chucked the final addition of aroma hops into the fermenter in the hop bag. It stayed there in primary for 14 days before I racked.

I'll be interested to see how the bottles from primary compare to the bottles from secondary. I listened to one of the 'basic brewing' podcasts recently where Dave Hogsdon of Wyeast was recommending not to rack to secondary and not to use a bottling bucket as each step is introducing more oxygen. This goes against everything I've been doing since I started to brew but I'll make a comparison with my secondary bottles to see what the difference is. The beer was surprisingly clear already although there is more sediment in the bottles than usual.

Edit: I forgot to mention, I found my last couple of beers too sweet but the extra hop bite really balanced the flavours in this one.

[niall]

Thanks for the comments DaaB. I witheld the extract based on reading several articles on 'late extract additions' - the only one I can remember offhand is this one http://www.byo.com/feature/1510.html and as you pointed out the hops should be boiled in wort. I think the first time I used this method I added half the extract at the start and boiled the hops in this, then added the remaining extract with 15 minutes to go. The idea behind this is that hop utilisation is better at a lower gravity and the colour is lighter as some of the extract is boiled for a shorter duration. However it seems I've taken this to the extreme this time around by leaving all of the extract out until such a late stage. I'll try and split the difference next time by adding a little extract at the start and more towards the end. I would love to move towards a full boil when I get a chiller.

I don't have a tap fitted to my fermenter so I suppose I'm at greater risk of oxidisation; in the podcast he made the very same points you do about removing the beer from the yeast no later than 14 days - I normally rack at about day 10. The main point of his argument was that the more you handle the beer the more likely you are to oxidise it. According to him "oxidation is what affects beer adversely more than anything else". I've always followed the 'rack to secondary, rack to bottling bucket' approach but it's always interesting to hear another opinion, especially when it's from the guy who founded Wyeast. His arguments sounded plausible although he didn't mention how to get around the issue of having more sediment in the bottle.

[niall]

He started off as a homebrewer when he was in college and his interest in brewing - and yeast in particular - prompted him to start cultivating yeast for local breweries. It seems that Wyeast grew from there. He claims that Wyeast still brew homebrew batches themselves and he judges homebrew competitions so I would assume he's familiar with the limitations. It's an interesting listen regardless and he dicusses all aspects of yeast including yeast washing, starters etc. The podcasts are definitely American focused but there are some interesting interviews and discussions that apply across the board. http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/

occasionaly it gives contradictory advice

Tell me about it Still, there are as many opinions out there as there are brewers. Half the fun for me is trying different techniques and discovering which ones are sheer disasters...

[niall]

Just a couple of picky points, brew length refers to volume not duration

Thanks for pointing that out DaaB, just saw that comment now, I think I've been using that term wrong from the start...

[Frothy]

All Palmers brews use 11.3L partial boils with 1/2 extract at the beginning and 1/2 at the end - its ingenious really as the boil gravity (the key factor in hop utilization I learn recently) is pretty much the same this way as if you were to carry out a full boil (19L.)

isn't hot side oxidation a myth?
Matt

[monk]

I'm no expert brewer, by any means, but I have tried several of these techniques. I use all DME with extract recipes and add 1-2 pounds at beginning of boil and the other 4-5 pounds at the end (with about 20 minutes to boil). This seems to work well and avoids carmelization. The hop utilization seems better, too.

As for fermenting. I use a glass carboy for the first 10 days or so, then rack to a smaller carboy and leave it for a week or two. I also make smaller batches without using a secondary or clearing vessel. These brews are a bit less refined, I think, but come out pretty good. I've heard a lot of people say, lately especially, that racking to a secondary doesn't really help much, and that you should just leave it in the primary for longer (about 2 weeks). I don't know about this. i've tried it, and it seems to work, but I'm not super happy with my brews, so I'm not sure. I know a lot of people go by the 123 rule: 1 week primary, 2 weeks secondary, and 3 weeks in bottle. I guess I tend to leave my batches in primary for up to 2, secondary for only 1 and the bottle for as little time as possible!

I'd like to ask a brewmaster I know (who also homebrewed a lot) what his thoughts are on all this, especially the time in fermenters/use of a secondary question.

monk