Ice concentration

Discuss making up beer kits - the simplest way to brew.
Secue

Re: Ice concentration

Post by Secue » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:58 pm

I think thats a myth spud, not illegal in the UK anyway.

@Jordan, check the blog in my siggie for info on the blueberry TC mate :)

Spud395

Re: Ice concentration

Post by Spud395 » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:03 pm

Maybe so, I know it's illegal over here and presumed you guys were the same.

deadbeatrocknroll

Re: Ice concentration

Post by deadbeatrocknroll » Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:54 pm

Any form of distilling in the UK is covered by HMRC laws. They currently state that stills must produce less than 5 litres and be for personal use. A licence should be obtained, telling them what you are making. It is otherwise illegal apparently.

Stoat on a rope

Ice concentration

Post by Stoat on a rope » Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:18 am

BrewDog freeze distill without licence, it's legal.

jordanchaos

Re: Ice concentration

Post by jordanchaos » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:07 am

Distillation and concentration are two completely different processes.

Distillation is the removal of alcohol spirits from the fermented substance, that’s how distillers get whisky from beer. Concentrating does not remove anything but water, so there is no real distillation going on.

Cribbed that from another site.
Barring local laws it's actually legal in the US too. Many microbreweries make an EisBock.

Thanks for the warning though.

boingy

Re: Ice concentration

Post by boingy » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:58 am

This is a discussion we have had many times before but I've yet to see a definitive answer.
I personally consider that it is a form of distillation but then I don't make the rules. Decent Wiki article here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze_distillation

But before we get too carried away, perhaps we should reflect on this:
jordanchaos wrote: the icejacked beer on its own is quite frankly 'orrid.
:D :D :D

coatesg

Re: Ice concentration

Post by coatesg » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:56 pm

Spud395 wrote:This is called freeze distilling and like other forms of distilation is illegal without a licence
This discussion has been done before - Brewdog claim you do not need a license since it is beer and not spirit. On a technical level very hard to get right as you need exceptionally good beer to start with before freezing (this is the way eisbock is produced). I think mysterio had tried End of History and said it was revolting...

A hydro will not work after you concentrate, and it's not as simple as a division for working out ABV IIRC.

jordanchaos

Re: Ice concentration

Post by jordanchaos » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:54 pm

The beer I made was really heavy and dark, its just too much, but a small amount added to each bottle adds massive body, its nice.However a super light lager may provide OK results (I don't think its ever going to be 'good') Cider however is a really really neat idea. The yanks have a history of Applejack.

Keiran, is 'Something Wicked' Inspired by British Sea Power?

Secue

Re: Ice concentration

Post by Secue » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:51 am

hey jordan, your a scientist by trade? Whats the crack with some people going on about ice concentration of apple jack etc...producing methanols in higher quantities and ending up like stevie wonder after drinking it? Is that just a load of tosh or wot? :)

jordanchaos

Re: Ice concentration

Post by jordanchaos » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:07 pm

if were incredibly efficient with your concentration (far beyond what was easily available in the home- you'd need an ultrasonic bath for one), the original brew was indeed high in undesirable alcohols, if you are a strong willed and foolhardy drinker of spirits with a long established high tolerance to alcohol, you could FEASIBLY do yourself a mischief. Blinding is very unlikely from this, illness and hangover from hell and back, likely. Remember this is not a new idea, Eisbeer, AppleJack and even the Brewdog brewery have been there before.

As with anything let good sense be your guide. Skimming 50% water of a 10% cider is OK. Working tirelessly to produce a small amount of concentrate is foolish. I want to be part of a progressive brewing movement. If you want to get blind drunk on scotch that tastes awful just got to Lidl – its way less effort.

We need an “Experiment’s what we done” thread don’t we?

P.S I cant seem to find any kind of digital alcohol measuring device anywhere

Stoat on a rope

Ice concentration

Post by Stoat on a rope » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:55 pm

I quite enjoyed end of history, very warming, like a sweet cask strength whisky.

I was listening to a discussion on an old brewing network podcast yesterday, they were saying there still isn't enough methanol to do you any damage in a drink like applejack, but it is the concentrated methanol that gives you a stinking hangover!

Something wicked was just a quick description I could think up for my lambic, bearing in mind the risk I've taken in actually introducing spoiling microorganisms into my brewery!


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Pinto
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Re: Ice concentration

Post by Pinto » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:08 pm

Live your life according to "all things in moderation" and you wont go too far wrong.

Im thinking of trying to concentrate some of my forthcoming Imperial Stout, with a view to using it as "spirit" base for this year's Xmas pudding :D - way I see it, the methanol/fusels should only be a problem if I decided to use too much to concentrate - after all, if theres,say, 0.5% nasties in 2l of beer, the same quantity will be in 200ml of concentrate; issue comes when I decide to add 5 batches of concentrate together in a pint glass and try to drink it :shock:
Primary 1: Nonthing
Primary 2 : Nothing
Primary 3 : None
Secondary 1 : Empty
Secondary 1 : None
DJ(1) : Nowt
DJ(2) : N'otin....
In the Keg : Nada
Conditioning : Nowt
In the bottle : Cinnamonator TC, Apple Boost Cider, Apple & Strawberry Cider
Planning : AG #5 - Galaxy Pale (re-brew) / #6 - Alco-Brau (Special Brew Clone) / #7 Something belgian...
Projects : Mini-brew (12l brew length kit) nearly ready :D

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dcq1974
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Re: Ice concentration

Post by dcq1974 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:29 pm

Yes sorry to be a party pooper but as far as I recall - this form of freeze distillation is as illegal as conventional distillation :shock: :(

Care with discussions Crafties :D :D :D :D

At least you won't blow yourselves up this way :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Last edited by dcq1974 on Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Secue

Re: Ice concentration

Post by Secue » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:32 pm

haha..illegal...legal....nobody seems to be able to agree on this. Someone email HMRC and ask! maybe i'll do it...

Dr. Dextrin

Re: Ice concentration

Post by Dr. Dextrin » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:45 pm

Interesting that no-one seems to know about the legality. You'd think that of all places a home brew forum would be where to find that sort of thing out. :roll: I've always assumed it to be illegal as I don't really see the difference between removing alcohol from a fermented drink and removing water. If you remove water, you're left with concentrated alcohol, so you've effectively removed alcohol from the water as well.

BTW, my understanding was that conventional (hot) distillation could lead to poisoning by unwanted alcohols because as the temperature of the liquid (and vapour) rises different fractions are boiled off. If you collect at the wrong temperature, you may end up catching all the nasty products and concentrating them with nasty consequences.

I don't know to what extent the same thing happens with freezing, but from the physics of it I can't see any reason why it would be much different. The details would depend on the freezing points of the various possible mixtures, but in principle you could end up concentrating the nasties in the same way. Much the same thing happens with rocks when magma cools (sorry, my daughter's a geologist) and that's how you end up with concentrations of different minerals.

So I'd say there's the potential for danger here.

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