Suggestions wanted re orange peel

[twentyfootwilf]

I want to make a dark(ish) ale/porter with a chocolate and citrusy orange hint. I've not tried such a thing before so would be pleased to hear anyone's experiences of using combinations of the ingredients I was thinking of using viz, a standard one can bitter kit ( the one I've got is one of Hop and Grape (Darlington)'s own branded kits, which I've used before as a base to good effect ), a 1.5kg tin of Briess light malt extract, 500g Light DME, 250g dark brown sugar (always adds something to the brew I think), Some chocolate malt (thought maybe 200 to 250g) and some dried orange peel which I got from an ebay shop called the Spice Works. I may even add a small amount of mulled wine spices to make it into a Festive brew for Christmas. Any suggestion for a citrusy hop addition? Thought I would brew it to 20 or 21 litres. I watched craigtubes Coopers English Bitter Porter video which got my brain thinking of a Chocolate Orange Porter (for want of a better description) for a Christmas Pint. Any ideas?

[AdyG]

I'm asking myself the same question at the moment about Christmassy hops. I was thinking of Amarillo hops at the end of the boil and left to steep, but if you are doing a kit you will be pureeing them up in a blender and adding as a dry hop for a week after main fermentation?

I was trying to get a chocolatey dark beer but hopped a bit more like a Black IPA with the Amarillo late hop, a bit of orange zest, cinnamon, nutmeg and maybe ginger.

[twentyfootwilf]

I was thinking of doing a 15 min boil with some hops in some liquor that I will have steeped some dried orange peel and possibly some mulled wine spices. I wasn't really planning on dry hopping. I thought of cascade or Amarillo hops. Just not sure how much orange peel to steep.

[duffymoon]

It's somewhat different, but I boil up 25g of curacao peel for 15 mins for my wheat beer Hoegaarden clone. The flavour the peel imparts is quite subtle, so in your case with a dark more flavourful beer I'd suggest at least 50g of the dried peel to impart any noticeable flavour that's not drowned by the dark malts. You may just find though that it's not really an "orange" flavour, I'd describe it more as "complex bitterness" so you might be better off with peel from a fresh orange if the flavours you want actually include "orange". Incidentally, Hoegaarden claim that the citrus flavour in their beer comes from the coriander rather than the orange peel, so that might also be worth pairing with your brew.

Just a thought anyway, & good luck!
DM

[twentyfootwilf]

Coriander seeds certainly have a distinctive orange aroma to them. So that might be worth including instead of the mulled wine spices which have a very strong smell of cloves with them. The perceived bitterness from the dried orange peel may work well to balance the high malt content of my proposed recipe. Thanks for the food for thought DM.

[PhilB]

Hi Wilf

I believe if you want your beer to actually taste of oranges then you need to be adding fresh orange peel (no pith) into the fermenter. Traditionally it would have been into secondary but not many people do that primary/secondary stuff any more, if you don't, then it goes into your FV after the initial ferment has died down ... the sort of time you would add your dry hops You'd still add the dried peel to the boil (for the underlying bitterness/flavour) but the fresh peel in the FV adds orange aroma too, that convinces you taht the beer tastes orang-ey

I made a Chocolate Orange Porter for last Xmas from a Brupaks Brews of the World-London Porter kit (bear in mind that those BOTW kits are "premium" all malt kits (no extra fermentables needed) so all my additions are extras ... also that kit only makes 10 lts so you might want to scale any additions, if you're doing a full 5 gal kit) ... to the kit I added 50gms of Crystal Malt and 50g of Chocolate Malt, steeped in 65C water for half an hour ... I then boiled 300gms of DME in the liquor from the steep for 15 mins with the peel of one orange (you could use your dried peel here. I'm sorry I don't know how much) ... I also added 30g of cocoa for the last 5 mins of the boil. I then added the peel of another orange into the FV after 4 days of fermentation. It turned out really nice ... it was orangey, it was chocolatey, but it was still porter ... However I made that in August last year and by Xmas it was good, but it kept getting better and probably hit its peak around February ... so now may already be too late for this Xmas!

Cheers, PhilB

[twentyfootwilf]

Thanks Phil, I'm really getting some interesting ideas to ponder on here. I guess if I grate the peel from a fresh orange or two that would provide some fresh orange flavour and aroma to the brew if used dry hop style. I know what you mean about these complex flavoured beers needing long maturing, even a simple stout kit improves no end after 6 months or so, I've found. I made a brewpak BOW stout and it was very good after a long keep. Thanks for the tips.

[twentyfootwilf]

Well here's what I've done today. Last night I put 50g dried orange peel and 10g mulled wine spices in a saucepan and poured boiling water over them and steeped them overnight. Today I strained the liquid off the peel and spices and steeped 275g aromatic malt at 65c for one hour and 150g chocolate malt for 30mins. in the spiced liquid. Then I used the resulting liquor in which to boil 25g celeia hops, 20g bruised coriander seeds for 15 mins and 10g cascade hops for 7 mins.
I added this liquor to the FV with a 1.5kg bitter kit bought from Hop and grape (Darlington) their own brand, 1.5kg tin Coopers amber malt extract, 500g medium DME and 250g soft dark brown sugar. Made up to 23 litres. I intend adding the zest of 2 large oranges dry hop fashion after the krausen dies down. I used two sachets of Muntons Premium Gold yeast. Og is about 1050. Who knows how it's going to turn out but it's going to be interesting at the very least.

[duffymoon]

Love it! Guess you don't know until you try!! Please do report back.
Cheers
DM

[twentyfootwilf]

I'll certainly do an update as and when it's drinkable. Can anyone say whether it's safe to use the peel of fresh oranges dry hop style from the point of view of sanitation or does it have to be boiled for a few minutes to sanitize it? and then use the resulting orange peel tea? or can you even put a whole orange into sanitizer then rinse it off before dry hopping with the peel?

[twentyfootwilf]

This brew is becoming weird and wonderful. After 48 hours of vigorous ferment I did the following. Took the zest and juice of 2 large tangerines and boiled it up with the addition of 1/2 litre of water for 3 mins. I then added 20g of celeia hops and a further 1/2 litre of boiling water and left it to steep for 15 mins. Then strained and cooled the resulting liquor which amounted to about 3/4 litre and added it to the FV (will reduce the gravity very slightly but will be counteracted when priming at bottling time).

[6470zzy]

I will be interested to hear how this one turns out in regards to the orange aroma that you end up having. I usually will zest 3 large Mineolla Tangelos and add that at flame-out. I should mention that most of my all-grain batches are only 10 litres so you may want to adjust that number for your own purposes. As for hop additions I like Amarillo and Summit with the orange zest. I have never done this with a stout though, maybe that should be next

Cheers

[Monkeybrew]

Feeling quite inspired by this post!

I've got an £8 Stout (Wilko Velvet Stout + 1kg of BKE) brew on the cards, and had originally toyed with brewing an Orangey Stout for xmas using Amarillo hops for flavour. I then thought that it wasn't maybe such a good idea, and that I would brew it short and strong instead.

After reading this whole post, I am now thinking that it wasn't such a crazy idea after all

MB

[twentyfootwilf]

Well when I did a hydro check this morning after 7 days. It has a definite chocolate taste with a subtle orange flavour. Obviously this is going to take some maturing but at this stage the signs are promising. I made mine with a bitter kit but I'm sure a stout kit would would also work well. I used celiea hops as I had read somewhere on the forum that Wherry use celiea and Wherry tastes slightly orangey citrussy to me.

[6470zzy]

that I would brew it short and strong instead.

After reading this whole post, I am now thinking that it wasn't such a crazy idea after all

MB

I think that you should brew it short and strong and with the orange zest and amarillo

Cheers