How many trees?

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Hudson1984
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How many trees?

Post by Hudson1984 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:50 am

Hi all,

So being as we’re all still in lockdown, we’ve been gardening more than normal.

We’ve begun talking about fruit trees, we have a 9’ wall all around our garden - we’re in a corner plot - other than one side which is fenced.

The longest stretch of wall is about 35m long, we are thinking of having trained apple trees along some/all of its length.

Ideally we’d pot these in large raised planters - mainly because the wall is grade 2 listed and after spending a bloody fortune on its repairs I’d rather not have roots undermining it.

Training the branches I don’t think will cause damage really.

What I wondered is how many trees would I need to actually have a useful amount of fruit?

The wife wants to make jam.
I’d like to make cider
I’d also like to do juice and apple vinegar

Not all three at once perhaps but being able to mix it up would be grand.

We’re also thinking of more berries - I’m not a keen gardener and rather keep things edible in a garden but our garden was quite established when we moved in so it’s a case of clearing stuff out.

The fruit trees however could be sorted quite quickly especially as it means I’ll make raised planter which keeps the wife happy.

Anyway - how many trees? I understand I’ll like yield less with them being trained rather than growing free but hopefully I still have enough room for something usable otherwise I won’t waste the space if it’s not worth it

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Re: How many trees?

Post by LeeH » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:41 pm

At my last house we had a apple tree around 10m I think. It produced a decent amount of fruit. I have no idea what the ideal length though.


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Hudson1984
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Re: How many trees?

Post by Hudson1984 » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:48 pm

Just measured the area I want to start with,

10m Long,
800mm deep.
Height as high as I need.

Now, if I were to use this, train the trees up the wall would this give a usable yield?

I’d probably buy pre-trained trees to get a few years ahead

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Uncle Joshua » Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:49 pm

I think training them improves yeald. I used to visit a site called allotments4all if it's still going, you should ask there.

https://www.allotments4all.co.uk/

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Hanglow » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:12 pm

I have a few trees in my allotment where we had limited space and train them as cordons. You need to select the right type of tree for that though (spur bearing). You can fit more varieties into the space then, if you want that

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Northern Brewer » Tue Apr 14, 2020 4:53 pm

Hudson1984 wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:50 am
What I wondered is how many trees would I need to actually have a useful amount of fruit?

The wife wants to make jam.
I’d like to make cider
I’d also like to do juice and apple vinegar

Not all three at once perhaps but being able to mix it up would be grand.
It's a bit of a length of a piece of string question, especially since you don't give basic information like where you are, which way the wall faces, soil type etc, and that's before you get onto different varieties, root stocks and so on. But 10m of cordons at 75cm spacing in good conditions could give you somewhere in the region of 30-100kg of fruit, which depending on your press might give you 10-60 litres of juice. It's up to you if you think that is a "useful" amount.

Growing in pots....won't be a positive for yield. You're restricting the growth of roots needed to feed and water the fruit, as well as giving yourself extra work either watering or setting up a watering system.

First thing to do is work out if at any point you're going to be interested in growing the fruit that are possible-but-marginal in the UK, like grapes, kiwis and peaches - they need to go in the most prime, sunniest part of the wall. Followed by the more sun loving kinds of temperate fruit, like gages and pears (Beth is a lovely, small pear).

As well as the heat and shelter benefiting fruit like peaches, growing against a wall also makes it easier to net them against birds (completely and utterly essential for cherries, I've not suffered too much with other fruit, although I might resent the amount of grapes they take if I was maximising my yield rather than treating them as partly grown for bird food) and to protect peaches against the winter rain (which brings leaf-curl fungus, the bane of peaches in the UK).

Also think about any other random tree fruit you might like to try - damsons (useful freezer fruit for pies etc - and damson gin), mirabelles, cherry plums etc. Plums in general are good value as home trees, although you tend to get a huge glut for about 10 days. You can reduce that problem with a family tree, 2-3 different varieties grafted onto one rootstock. You have to watch the pollination timing, but something like a mix of Opal, Czar, Oullins Golden Gage and Marjorie's Seedling will give you a full range of fruiting times with fairly similar pollination times.

Then think about your objectives with the apples - are you aiming to be self-sufficient, in which case thugs like Bramley will help get your yield up, or will you take the view that you can always buy in Bramleys if you need to, and your growing space is best used for stuff that you either can't buy readily (like cider varieties, or heritage eating varieties) or just aren't very good in the shops - I love Egremont Russets, but if you do find them in the shops they are almost always picked way too early (and they don't keep well).

When you say cider, are you thinking Somerset cider or Eastern Counties cider, which uses dessert apples so gives you more flexibility than dedicated cider varieties? Dudda's Tun make classic examples if you want to see what's possible, their Original is a benchmark Kent cider made with Egremont Russet, Cox & Bramley, Disco is a single varietal that shows off Discovery at its best. But one can't argue against growing proper cider varieties either.

For juice, I think either Egremont Russet or Worcester Pearmain are my favourites.

Also worth having generous numbers of rhubarb plants for this time of year when there's no fruit available other than what's in the freezer.

Edit:Meant to say, if you're serious then it's a good idea to go to the source for plants - the garden centre at the National Fruit Collection for tree fruit, and the National Collection of Vines for grapes (who did a nice article for the RHS mag last autumn).

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Hudson1984 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:06 am

hi thanks for the great reply.

appreciate there's no hard and fast figures for this, but it was more a case of if I was only like to get a maximum of 10 litres if I put in loads of work then the reward just isn't there. 10-60 is fine, It would be nice to be able to do a fermenting bins worth once a year. Get it all bottled then just enjoy what's left for anything else. So that range is pretty perfect.

the pots, I agree, isn't ideal. But sadly - risking the wall to roots isn't a risk I want to take, We spent £8,000 repairing a corner of the thing, I'd dread what it would cost to repair this length if the worse happened. We'll be getting it fully repointed prior to adding the trees but still, pots is all I can really do. I will make them as deep and as large as is practical but yes, I am limiting growth here for sure.

in terms of objectives, self sufficiency isn't too high up there really. Yes it would be nice but I don't think we've geared the main area of the garden to be used that way, so other than being self sufficient with fruit the rest just wouldn't follow. Would be nice though, I mean we have a veg patch but that will account for probably 10 meals a year - not really self sufficient. So yes, would really be varieties I cannot easily obtain from shops - and mainly be based around cider varieties.

In terms of type of cider production - nothing in mind there really, would like to be led by the fruit. I like fruit cider so would be adding to whatever I make. But we do prefer a more crisp, dry cider. the flexibility you suggest offered with dessert apples would certainly be appealing.

My only real concern in mixing what I grow in this area is the reduction in production of the apples. I'd love to have grape, cherry, pears, rhubarb and peach, strawberries. But it's a case of getting the most from the space allowed.

I can probably add berries elsewhere in the garden i.e. Blueberries and Blackberries, we've a large bed area that is crying out for berries. But for this cordon plan, I'd like to ensure I don't try to grow too many varieties and end up with such small amounts of anything I can't really use it for anything other than the odd grab off the tree.

In terms of self sufficiency though, if I could make my own cider without needing to go to the shops I'd be over the moon! so yes there is self sufficiency in mind but purely from an alcohol point of view.

Freezing some of the production would be great, but I think that would mainly be berries as we'd use them for desserts more than apples, the apples in reality are mainly going to be for cider production.
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Hudson1984
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Re: How many trees?

Post by Hudson1984 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:08 am

also excuse the weird rotation on photos....

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Northern Brewer » Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:50 am

Hudson1984 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:06 am
In terms of type of cider production - nothing in mind there really, would like to be led by the fruit. I like fruit cider so would be adding to whatever I make. But we do prefer a more crisp, dry cider. the flexibility you suggest offered with dessert apples would certainly be appealing.
Well the main point of using cider varieties is for tannin, but for fruit cider you don't want tannin, so if that's the main requirement then that's another argument for mostly dessert apples.

If you like crisp and dry, try the Turner's russet cider - tbh it's too dry for my taste, their regular dry cider has won awards at the Bath & West Show, which is a bit of a big deal for a Kentish cider.

You still haven't said where you are in the country - you will have far fewer options in Glasgow than in Sussex. And am I right in thinking your picture is of a northeast-facing wall? That could be a problem - what space is there on the opposite side of the garden?

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Hudson1984 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:03 am

it's a north facing wall, but the house is directly infront of it.

i'm based in Suffolk - so east coast.

The rest of the garden is fairly packed around the edges with established bushes - we do have a long fence which is south facing however it's officially owned by the neighbour....and we don't really get on. Plus there's a huge amount of Ivy on the fence from their side so i'd be a little worried trying to grow anything up it as the Ivy would quickly take hold. We fight to just keep the fence clear let alone adding fruit. But if we did use the fence, we'd probably have around 11/12m of space that could be planted.

The open area with bark is destined to be a kiddie play area, the raised bed has veg. The posts do appear to have holes that I could put wire through to have the tress trained on...

it's possible, as long as they don't come out massively.
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Re: How many trees?

Post by Northern Brewer » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:41 pm

Hudson1984 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:03 am
it's a north facing wall, but the house is directly infront of it.
Shelter is one aspect of it, but the real problem is that sunlight is the food that makes sugar that makes alcohol. You'd need to talk to the guys at Brogdale - they have forgotten more about fruit trees than I will ever know, but I'd guess you'd be heavily restricted to "northern" varieties like James Grieve (and eg morello cherries, and maybe Opal plums as they're Swedish).

South-facing garden is a precious resource that you need to make the most of, I'd gently suggest your fruit needs it more than the kids....

Suffolk's OK, I guess drought will be one potential problem, and I imagine cold winds from the sea, but I guess it's not so different from Kent, where apples do OK...

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Hudson1984 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:45 pm

I think i'll use the fence for apples, seems the best position based on your advice. Wind isn't a "huge" issue in this garden as the wall covering the other three sides is 10' tall in some areas so it give good shelter.

South facing fence is probably best used for the apples in that case.

Could I use the sheltered area for softer fruit? Cherries like you suggest, but perhaps other berries? Easier to net over from birds but perhaps raspberries, cherries, strawberries. Make use of the 10m length available but all would need to thrive in shaded shelter.

Would give me more juice for fruit cider and also more things for jam etc.

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Northern Brewer » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:56 pm

I was specifically talking about morello cherries, which seem to be the usual rec for north-facing walls, sweet cherries need more sun. And as I say I suspect you could get away with those very early plums like Opal and Czar, certainly for cooking use, and probably damsons which are pretty tough although I don't have much direct experience of growing fruit north-facing.

But most of the soft fruit tends to be from further north so should manage something even if they will be riper and more productive when south-facing. Blueberries are probably the most extreme, they're essentially bog plants so like their feet wet, and while I've only grown them in fairly token manner, I've never really felt that they quite gave the rewards that the space they took up would justify. But I guess blackberries and their allies would probably be your best bet. Again, Brogdale should be able to advise on specifics.

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Hudson1984 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:31 pm

sent them a mail,

see what we can sort out. Be nice to get something growing or at least planted this year.

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Re: How many trees?

Post by Kingfisher4 » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:13 pm

Wow, what fantastic advice already.
The only thing I would add is why don’t you consider some blackcurrants? A couple of bushes are incredibly easy to look after, yield extremely well and are too tart for the birds to bother stealing / harvesting!
They freeze incredibly well and last at least a couple of years in the freezer if necessary. Perfect mixed with some of your apples in pies or crumbles. Also make fantastic Blackcurrant Vodka!

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