Water treatment for cider

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guypettigrew
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Water treatment for cider

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:11 pm

A Wobblygob cider kit is on its way to me. My first ever attempt at cider.

Is it best to treat the water the kit will be diluted with? I only brew AG beers and take a fair bit of trouble treating the raw water to drop the alkalinity etc.

Do I need to do anything similar for cider?

Thanks.

Guy

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by Trefoyl » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:01 pm

I used bottled water with very low alkalinity and very low mineral content to not interfere with the naturally low ph of the juice. I used concentrate from Herefordshire cider apples and 1 gallon local juice (with no preservatives that would stop fermentation). Concentrate has lost its aroma so fresh juice is essential.
I used Wyeast Cider yeast https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/cider and I’m quite pleased with the result considering it’s just concentrate.
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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by McMullan » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:37 pm

If the concentrate is based on genuine cider apple juice, rather than dessert apple juice, there's not much to do really. Check the pH. That's the main factor. Pseudo cider based on dessert apple juice (they plague the world) tends to ferment out too acidic, without any intervention. I'd be interested to know if this wobblygob kit, or any others, are actually made from cider apple juice. I've been wondering about this recently, a new market to protect English cider apple orchards, given how most things have been decimated by social restrictions due to the pandemic. I'd be more than happy to pay extra for a genuine English cider apple concentrate.

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:05 pm

McMullan wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:37 pm
If the concentrate is based on genuine cider apple juice, rather than dessert apple juice, there's not much to do really. Check the pH. That's the main factor. Pseudo cider based on dessert apple juice (they plague the world) tends to ferment out too acidic, without any intervention. I'd be interested to know if this wobblygob kit, or any others, are actually made from cider apple juice. I've been wondering about this recently, a new market to protect English cider apple orchards, given how most things have been decimated by social restrictions due to the pandemic. I'd be more than happy to pay extra for a genuine English cider apple concentrate.
That's the crucial point, isn't, McM? Dessert apples are just that. Apples for dessert.

Cider apples are very different and, mostly, inedible. The kit's called Great Barr, but I can't fins any reference to an apple of that name.

Like you, a concentrate from genuine cider apples, such as Kingston Black which a friend uses, would be worth paying a premium for.

Guy

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by Cobnut » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:36 pm

“In east Anglia, cider is traditionally made from dessert and cooking apples.”

Direct quote from here: https://midanglia.camra.org.uk/viewnode.php?id=30100 attributed to a local cider maker


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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:44 pm

Interesting, Cobnut. Thanks. Wonder what proportion of cooking apples are used. These are very tart, a bit like cider apple varieties.

As to the Wobblygob kit, I've just found out Great Barr is a place in or near Birmingham. Nothing to do with an apple variety!

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by Cobnut » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:00 pm

I’m sure there are some ciders made from 100% dessert apples.

I also recall reading a homebrew book back in the 80s - I think I still have it somewhere - which suggested a mix of sweet (dessert), sour (cooking) and bitter (crab) apples in decreasing percentages. The balance of acids and tannins is key I believe.

Having said all that, I’ve only ever made cider from apple juice using the TC method and the results have been less than overwhelming!

Good luck with your kit - I hope it works out well.


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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by Trefoyl » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:27 pm

Cobnut wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:36 pm
“In east Anglia, cider is traditionally made from dessert and cooking apples.”

Direct quote from here: https://midanglia.camra.org.uk/viewnode.php?id=30100 attributed to a local cider maker
Aspall Cyder in Suffolk is made from dessert or eating apples and while not “real” because it’s not naturally fermented, I really like it.
Sommeliers recommend that you swirl a glass of wine and inhale its bouquet before throwing it in the face of your enemy.

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by Jim » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:35 pm

I don't know if our own cider page put together by Jean-Yves is any help - https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/cider_1.htm .

Obviously he's talking about apples that grow in France, but maybe there are British equivalents.
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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by guypettigrew » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:56 pm

Thanks Jim. I didn't know we had a cider page! Very interesting.

From the point of view of making a kit, where the juice has already been pressed, the main thing seems to be a low fermentation temperature. But perhaps this is only for naturally occurring yeasts already present on the apples and in the atmosphere. The commercially available yeasts all suggest about 20°C or more.

In many places, such as here, a fermentation temperature of about 15°C is quoted to preserve the apple flavour and aroma. Perhaps, with the cider kit, I'll start it at 20°C to get it going, but then drop it to 15°C once it's showing signs of fermentation. Comments would be welcome.

Yeast nutrient may also be helpful.

Also, following Trefoyle's comment, I'll reduce the alkalinity of the water used to dilute the concentrate. Probably down to about 15-20 ppm from my starting point of about 200ppm. I might also contact the Wobblygob people to ask for their advice on alkalinity.

Guy

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by Linus » Thu Jun 03, 2021 12:46 am

guypettigrew wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:05 pm
McMullan wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:37 pm
If the concentrate is based on genuine cider apple juice, rather than dessert apple juice, there's not much to do really. Check the pH. That's the main factor. Pseudo cider based on dessert apple juice (they plague the world) tends to ferment out too acidic, without any intervention. I'd be interested to know if this wobblygob kit, or any others, are actually made from cider apple juice. I've been wondering about this recently, a new market to protect English cider apple orchards, given how most things have been decimated by social restrictions due to the pandemic. I'd be more than happy to pay extra for a genuine English cider apple concentrate.
That's the crucial point, isn't, McM? Dessert apples are just that. Apples for dessert.

Cider apples are very different and, mostly, inedible. The kit's called Great Barr, but I can't fins any reference to an apple of that name.

Like you, a concentrate from genuine cider apples, such as Kingston Black which a friend uses, would be worth paying a premium for.

Guy
Great Barr is the area not far from Hampstead homebrew shop,I think they make the kits.

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by Trefoyl » Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:14 pm

Another question might be, “ How carbonated should it be?”
The consensus online seemed to be very little, or a lot, not in-between, with most leaning toward a lot so that’s what I went with. Now I’m not so sure because the carbonic bite seems a little harsh, maybe because the body from cider apples is richer than store bought juice so it clashes a bit?
Fortunately cider isn’t like beer so the bubbles dissipate quickly. Maybe I will decant it in future to help degas it a little.
Sommeliers recommend that you swirl a glass of wine and inhale its bouquet before throwing it in the face of your enemy.

McMullan

Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by McMullan » Thu Jun 03, 2021 9:37 pm

There are no credible ciders (I know of) made from 100% dessert apple juice. Dessert apples being juice from 'eating' apples, vs things like cider apples, cooking apples and even crap apples. That's not to say there aren't any commercial offerings of pseudo ciders made from 100% dessert apples. They do exist and they are shite. Most in Europe, to be fair. Spain, France and Britain have regions (ancestors) that have developed cider to a culturally noteworthy product that isn't only produced to make money. There is a difference. A huge difference. It's acceptable to blend dessert apple juice with cider apple juice, or even with cooking apple juice, like they do in the East, vs the South West :wink: Savages. A cider made from Bramley apple juice, at least a blend with dessert apple juice, is much better than 100% dessert apple juice. And why I'd be very interested in a genuine cider apple juice concentrate. On a hot day I find a real cider, with ice, very very refreshing.

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by oldbloke » Thu Jun 03, 2021 11:56 pm

I've made a lot of cider I deem "credible" with ordinary concentrate. Other people who've drunk it seem to like it better than a lot of the commercial rubbish out there. You just need to add tannin and maybe adjust the acidity. I do always base the recipe around Suma concentrate which has a great flavour and a pH bang in the middle of the range recommended by Andrew Lea at http://www.cider.org.uk/ at the dilutions I use.
viewtopic.php?t=66468

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Re: Water treatment for cider

Post by McMullan » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:16 am

If only it were that simple. Some people like to believe they live in a simple world, where apples are apples and tannin is tannin. Even though it rudely ignores a long tradition of cultivating apple varieties specifically for cider making. The idea tannin profiles of cider apples can be replicated in dessert apple juice by bunging in a few teabags doesn’t work, for me. In reality, the tannin profiles (polyphenol profiles generally) of cider apples are significantly different from dessert apples. Traditional cider making selected for it. Tannins are a very diverse group of plant based molecules. I see no reason why tea tannin profiles are any closer to cider apple profiles than cocoa tannin profiles. Maybe that’s the trick, bung in a bar of dark chocolate :D Cider made from cider apples offers up complex flavour post fermentation. That’s why I’d be interested in cider apple juice concentrate. I can't even get cooking apples in Norway. I don’t accept bland artificially sweetened shite like Somersby* as credible cider. But I am a soft Southerner who grew up on the doorstep of real cider :wink:

*What a p*ss take on Somerset!

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