American/German wheat hybrid

[Morten]

I have just got a lot of 2012 American hops and I was thinking of doing a hybrid wheat beer.

I have the Weihenstephan strain on hand so I was planning on using that, even though it is not according to BJCP.

I was planning on ~20 IBU's bittering and then loading it with late additions.
I was planning on making a big aromatic, fruity wheat and save the piney hops for something else.

Which hops do you think would work with the yeast?
Hops on stock:
Athanum
Apollo
Bravo
Caliente
Calypso
Summit
Warrior
Simcoe
Motueka
Zythos
Cascade
Centennial
Chinook
Columbus

[seymour]

I think many of us members do this sorta hybid craziness all the time, but since what you suggest is "breaking the rules" that's why no one has replied with a definitive answer.

As you know, I'm all about experimentation, but I actually think there's still something sacred about using noble-type hops with that Weihenstephan yeast. Most people still use plain-ol' American ale yeast for American Wheat beers with American hops.

Go for it, though, it's up to you to convince us otherwise!

P.S. have you brewed with that Ahthanum yet, and if so, what did you think?

[Lugsy]

So is this going to be a Bavarian Weizen with American hops then? Schneider have done a couple of nice new world hopped beers in this style, "Meine Hopfen Weisse" and "Meine Nelson Sauvin". I think you're probably right in going for the fruitier varieties but I'd possibly try late or dry Simcoe additions for the berry flavours - mind you, I love Simcoe so I would say that

Good luck with it and let us know how it comes out!

[seymour]

+1 for Simcoe.

Yeah, Morten, it really just comes down to what you want to accomplish. You clearly have excellent taste, you have excellent ingredients, you work in a shop surrounded by excellent beers...

Exactly which hoppy flavour and aromas are you hoping to capture?

Which commercial beers have been your favourites lately? Identify some characteristics you want to replicate, even if you don't (yet) know which ingredients are responsible.

Which particular hops are you already in love with for bittering, for flavor, for aroma (I find those answers vary and no single hops ticks all my boxes)?

For instance:
I want to brew a spritzy, easy-drinking, light-bodied American wheat ale around 5% ABV like Widmer Hefeweizen or Boulevard Unfiltered Wheat but with a hint of Berliner Weiss tartness, extra creaminess from oats and Morland yeast, with some orange marmalade from Challenger hops, some melon and pear and tropical fruitiness from New Zealand hops and maybe Mauri yeast, plus a little extra dark stone fruit from Special B malt and a little extra berry fruit from late Simcoe hops, extra banana so ferment at the warm end of the range but not to the point of Wells Banana Bread Beer, faint kettle caramelization so an extra long boil and then top up with pretreated water, light amber and intentionally hazy, so skip the filtration and clarifying agents, etc, etc, etc...

[Morten]

Thanks guys.

I have made up my mind, brewing it Saturday

For 20 liters:
2,5 kg pale malt
2,0 kg wheat malt
0,5 kg cara hell
Pioneer to ~25 IBU
Flameout 20 grams each of caliente, calypso and motueka
Keg hopped with the same hops/amounts

EDIT: and just because I can - open fermentation

[seymour]

I have made up my mind, brewing it Saturday ...

Sounds delicious. Have fun!

...and just because I can - open fermentation

Cool, I keep reading that's the way to develop the best esters. I tried it once, but my cat couldn't resist fresh yeast and infected my whole batch. Apparently that's a well-known fact about cats, but it wasn't well-known to me. Ahhh!

[Morten]

Brewed Saturday - no pics.

The whole basement of our house smells like banana bread and fruit punch - I think it's going to be good

[Jocky]

Sorry I didn't pick this one up sooner as I've just done a hybrid wheat along the same lines as your thinking. My advice would have been that if you want your yeast to come through as a big part of the taste, then go no more than 20 IBU and be very very light on aroma hops.

I hopped with Amarillo and Galaxy to 20IBU, using half the weight at 20 min and half at 5 min, and used Fermentis WB-06. Out of the fermenter after 7 days it tasted gorgeous, with the yeast coming through nicely on the nose, a gentle hoppy taste and slight bitterness.

Unfortunately I then dry hopped with 1.5g/l of hops that had been partially pureed, which completely overpowered the delicate yeasty hefeweizen aroma and taste I wanted. If I were to do this again I'd not dry hop, and just perhaps shift the 5 minute hops to be an aroma steep.

Obviously with different hops and yeast you may fare differently (not to mention you may want something different to me), but please report back on how things went for you!

[Morten]

Sorry I didn't pick this one up sooner as I've just done a hybrid wheat along the same lines as your thinking. My advice would have been that if you want your yeast to come through as a big part of the taste, then go no more than 20 IBU and be very very light on aroma hops.

I hopped with Amarillo and Galaxy to 20IBU, using half the weight at 20 min and half at 5 min, and used Fermentis WB-06. Out of the fermenter after 7 days it tasted gorgeous, with the yeast coming through nicely on the nose, a gentle hoppy taste and slight bitterness.

Unfortunately I then dry hopped with 1.5g/l of hops that had been partially pureed, which completely overpowered the delicate yeasty hefeweizen aroma and taste I wanted. If I were to do this again I'd not dry hop, and just perhaps shift the 5 minute hops to be an aroma steep.

Obviously with different hops and yeast you may fare differently (not to mention you may want something different to me), but please report back on how things went for you!

Thanks for the advice.

I might just leave the dry hops out, because it smells gorgeous right now.

I do want to make a fruit bowl, but I would like to have the yeasty aroma along side.
I only did 60 min. and 5 min. so it shouldn't be too bitter.

[Jocky]

Try it at the end of the ferment and see.

With 25 IBU if you find that the yeast isn't coming through you can always add more hops to it and push it more in the American direction.

Mine's still a good beer, just not a great one.

[Jocky]

Ok, I may have been a bit hasty on this.

I tried my hybrid wheat last night, two weeks after bottling, and the hops have faded a little meaning that the yeast now comes through. It's definitely still a secondary flavour to a very distinctively hopped beer (I think I'd avoid Amarillo again), but the yeast is there and adds a nice complexity to the beer - I've described more here in my brewday thread:

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=57659&p=612065#p612065

Bottom line, I think it's come out quite good. More American Wheat than Hefe, but definitely a crossover there.

[Morten]

After 3 days of primary fermentation I put a lid on, because the krausen hat begun to drop.

Just took a wee whiff......OH MY

I have never smelled banana aroma like that - it is quite overwhelming, not much hops comes through right now.
I wish everybody could smell this, it is fantastic (if you are in to German wheats)

I can only recomend doing open fermentation if you really want to bring out the aroma from the yeast!

[Jocky]

What yeast?

[Morten]

Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan.

[Deebee]

P.S. have you brewed with that Ahthanum yet, and if so, what did you think?

I like it a lot. Its in Jaipur. Prefer it after it has mellowed a little but then thats just me:)