Advice wanted for Belgian brew...

[charliemartin]

I am hoping to get a brew on tomorrow. It is a Belgianesque beer using Dingeman's pale malt and Westmalle yeast cultured from a bottle of Westmalle Dubbel. I am not sure if it falls into any specific category of Belgian beer, but I am going to call it simply Belgian Gold.
However, not having brewed any kind of Belgian beer before I was wondering if some of you more experienced guys could give me some advice. In particular I would like advice on the hop schedule I am using. I have two versions (see below) one using Target to bitter and WGV and Fuggles for later additions, and one using just the WGV and Fuggles for the full boil. Which one do you think would be best suited to this brew? I am leaning towards the second hop schedule since Belgian beers are not really about the hops, are they?
With regards to the grain bill, do you think 400g of wheat malt is too much? I don't have any Belgian candy sugar available and am too lazy to make my own so I have subbed Tate & Lyle golden syrup. Do you think that will be okay and should I add more?
Anyway thanks for looking and look forward to receiving any advice given.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

Version 1
Fermentable Colour lb: oz Grams Ratio
Dingemans Pale Ale Malt 9 EBC 8 lbs. 13.0 oz 4000 grams 76.9%
Munich Malt 20 EBC 0 lbs. 14.0 oz 400 grams 7.7%
Tate & Lyle Syrup 30 EBC 0 lbs. 14.0 oz 400 grams 7.7%
Wheat Malt 3 EBC 0 lbs. 14.0 oz 400 grams 7.7%


Hop Variety Type Alpha Time lb: oz grams Ratio
Target Whole 12.01 % 90 mins 0 lbs. 0.4 oz 10 grams 20%
Fuggle Whole 6.4 % 30 mins 0 lbs. 0.7 oz 20 grams 40%
Whitbread Golding Whole 5.05 % 10 mins 0 lbs. 0.7 oz 20 grams 40%


Final Volume: 19 Litres
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.011
Alcohol Content: 6.4% ABV
Total Liquor: 33.2 Litres
Mash Liquor: 12 Litres
Mash Efficiency: 70 %
Bitterness: 26.61 EBU
Colour: 23 EBC

Version 2
Fermentable Colour lb: oz Grams Ratio
Dingemans Pale Ale Malt 9 EBC 8 lbs. 13.0 oz 4000 grams 76.9%
Munich Malt 20 EBC 0 lbs. 14.0 oz 400 grams 7.7%
Tate & Lyle Syrup 30 EBC 0 lbs. 14.0 oz 400 grams 7.7%
Wheat Malt 3 EBC 0 lbs. 14.0 oz 400 grams 7.7%


Hop Variety Type Alpha Time lb: oz grams Ratio
Fuggle Whole 6.4 % 90 mins 0 lbs. 0.7 oz 20 grams 50%
Whitbread Golding Whole 5.05 % 90 mins 0 lbs. 0.7 oz 20 grams 50%


Final Volume: 19 Litres
Original Gravity: 1.060
Final Gravity: 1.011
Alcohol Content: 6.4% ABV
Total Liquor: 33.2 Litres
Mash Liquor: 12 Litres
Mash Efficiency: 70 %
Bitterness: 24.75 EBU
Colour: 23 EBC

[Barley Water]

Just looking at it quickly I'd say what you will end up with is a Belgian Blonde a commerical example being say Leffe Blonde. The entire trick with those Belgian yeast strains is controlling fermentation temperature, pitch rate and to a much lesser extent fermenter geometry. If you have any experience with using German Heffe yeast they will behave in a similar fashion. I would caution you about letting things get too warm initially during the fermentation otherwise you run the risk of a hot, boozy tasting beer which you won't like and will give you a hell of a headache. What I would do is pitch about 64F, get things going then move the temperature up near the end of the fermentation to about 75F or so to get complete attenuation. You want that fruity flavor those yeasts can provide but if you run too hot it can get to be too much. Also, make sure to pitch enough yeast as under pitching will also cause off flavors as well as risk under attenuation. The end product should be gently fruity and complex, pretty dry (that's why they alway add sugar of some type) and be fairly carbonated (certainly quite a bit more that British beers). Once your beer is ready, go get one of those large brandy snifters and enjoy.

[charliemartin]

Thanks for the advice Barley Water. Unfortunately I don't yet have temperature control for my fermentations. Current temperature in the area I ferment is about 65-66F. It is fairly constant and I could probably raise it later if required, but not with any degree of accuracy. Thanks for the yeast advice as well, I forgot to ask about that and I did wonder if it was better to underpitch, which it clearly isn't. Currently got a starter on the stirplate of about 900ml which I aim to step up to about 2 litres tonight.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[roscoe]

I did a Belgium Blond fairly recently a kind of St.Feuillliens clone, a few points if I was ever going to do again,.....

1. At 6.4% I'd just add white sugar to make up to abv, I was about 6% sugar to get to target above, whilst opinion is split the yeast cope fine with it.

2. I had zero wheat in mine, small head, but crap retention, I'd do what you suggest ~5% wheat for lace/head

3. Hops are a funny one, style max's out at 30IBU which using bitterness ratio is only 0.45
Any bittering hop is fine and I used Celeia/Styrian and Hersbruker, just cos' no reason

4. Many of the flavours on the belgiums come from non hop sources such as yeast, aromatic malts, orange peels, juniper berries, coriander

not too sure what the Munich is for ? fine if you are looking for extra maltiness, but thats not my experience of belgium blondes, but of course there are so many beers in Belgium.

agree with ferm comments, depending on the yeast you need 20-22oC to get the benefit taste out of yeast, but you really don't want it getting over excited early on, you want to avoid high ferm temps, usual balancing act. I'd pitch at 18 and let yeast lift it up to 22

[charliemartin]

Cheers Roscoe, some good points there. The Munich is there partly just because I had some, also because I do like malty beers, and I'm sure I have seen it in some Belgian style recipes before.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[Barley Water]

Underpitching is a technique that can work for you, I do it when making Heffeweizen. Thing is, I have made many, many batches of that stuff over the years so I know what will happen (and I made some really crappy batches due to my screwing around with both that and fermentation temperature). My understanding is that some of the trappist breweries do it and well...we all know which team the monks play for. I think if you can keep the initial fermentation temperature down to about 64-65F you should be ok. After making a batch or two just taste it and see what you think. If you want more ester and phenol action then you can start playing around however be warned that you run the risk of doing an opps. Also remember that all those neat flavor goodies are produced early in fermentation when the yeast is replicating so in a nutshell the more you force the little stuckers to replicate, the more flavor compounds will be produced (and that is also why diacetyl rests at the end of fermentation don't cause flavor problems). Reducing the oxigen available will also cause yeast stress with many of the same outcomes as under pitching but again you run the risks mentioned above plus of course you could end up with under attenuated beer which also is not good. By the way, after you have worked all this stuff out for yourself with your system you'll find your lagers will turn out much better since you do exactly the opposite to make really clean beers.

[Hanglow]

I'd probably just use plain sugar instead of the syrup, but it would be fine too I'm sure

As for the hopping, english hops are used a lot as well as noble hops. I'm drinking a Triple I brewed recently that was bittered with challenger and finished with hallertau, it's rather nice. I've never seen Target used in a belgian beer but no reason why not

That yeast is lovely, or at least the White Labs version of it is which is what I@ve used before. make sure you have a blow off tube or loads of space in your fermentor as it makes a vast krausen

[charliemartin]

Thanks to everyone who posted advice. I brewed this yesterday and will post it in the brewdays section when I get the time. In the end I ditched the Target hops and went with 20g WGV & 25g Fuggles for the full boil.
It's fermenting away quite nicely this morning at 18C ambient.
Now for the hard part...............waiting.
Fingers crossed for a good result.

Cheers,
Charliemartin

[charliemartin]

That yeast is lovely, or at least the White Labs version of it is which is what I@ve used before. make sure you have a blow off tube or loads of space in your fermentor as it makes a vast krausen

I see what you mean........................



Cheers,
Charliemartin

[charliemartin]

Having cleaned up and top cropped a pile of yeast yesterday, it is back blowing through the airlock! This is a seriously vigorous yeast!

Cheers,
Charliemartin