Classic American Pilsner

[steve_flack]

The Natco stuff is 'designed' to have a long shelf life so has to be degermed.

So hopefully I'm OK.

[Rook]

Very interesting, i've bookmarked it and will probably give it a go this year.

Just to clarify one part, when you say add 20% by weight barley malt, does that mean you're adding 292g of pils malt to the polenta for the cereal mash, and mashing the rest of the pils malt (4308g) separately?

Was there an answer to this question?

I need to do my first cereal mash on the weekend using corn, so i'm also interested in the answer

Rook

[Aleman]

Just to clarify one part, when you say add 20% by weight barley malt, does that mean you're adding 292g of pils malt to the polenta for the cereal mash, and mashing the rest of the pils malt (4308g) separately?

Was there an answer to this question?

I need to do my first cereal mash on the weekend using corn, so i'm also interested in the answer

Sorry to all, for missing this question, but essentially Mysterio is correct, Whatever weight of 'corn' you are using you take around 1/5th to 1/4 of its weight (so if its 2000g then 400 to 500g of malt) from the main mash for the cereal mash and mash the rest of the pilsner malt separately.

Of course once you have boiled the cereal mash then you combine the two mashes again for the remainder of the duration of the main mash . . . Usually around 45-60 minutes in my case.

The amount of malt you take doesn't have to be precise, in Mysterio's example I would probably take 300g

[Rook]

Thanks mate

One last question, can you do a cereal mash with maize and rice together in the one pot ?

Rook

[Aleman]

One last question, can you do a cereal mash with maize and rice together in the one pot ?

You can indeed, all you have to remember is that no more than ~30% of the mash should come from the grits.

I have made the 'same' beer just varying the cereal used. First was a standard pilsner grist, then I made a CAP with 20% Corn, and finally a Rice lager with 20% rice. I liked both the BoP and the CAP the best . The rice lager . . . well there is no place to hide any flaws there While it was a fine beer, it is important to remember that Rice is a flavour dilutant as well as a nitrogen dilutant, all it contributes to the beer is alcohol.

[steve_flack]

Aleman,

Just checking on the main mash temps. Am I correct in my reading in that you do

64C for 30 mins whilst boiling the cereal mash then add the cereal mash which raises you to 68C for an hour.

The reason I ask is that I'd have thought the boiling cereal would raise it by more than 4C. Also I've seen 60-68C schedules mentioned for these.

[Rook]

I'm still a little confused here ( forgive me i'm an aussie ). I dont understand what the gelatises part means, if corn gelatises at 72c what is a cereal mash at 65c going to do that mashing at 65c isn't going to do.

Sorry for all the questions

But if you want to talk cricket thats another thing.

Edit : I just found the answer below, 65c is in the range


A classic cereal mash involves mixing roughly 90% crushed raw grain
with about 10% crushed malt and then immediately stepping this to or
just above the raw grain gelatinization temperature. Some ranges
for gelat temps for common raw grains (and others) are:
maize(corn) 62C-74C
sorghum 69C-75C
rice 61C-78C
wheat 52C-64C
barley 60C-62C
potato 56C-69C

Rook

[Aleman]

Starch Gelatinisation
Starch is a long chain molecule of single sugar units (In our case maltose, but they can be glucose and or fructose) in the order of 250000 units long. Now due to attraction and repulsion between the different atoms within the molecule these chains twist and turn, and the whole chain simply ends up coiled into a tight ball. When you add them to water (eg our rest at 606C), they absorb a bit of water and swell, but the mash enzymes are restricted to working on the bits of the molecule that are stuck outside of the ball on 1-4 or 16 branches. As you heat the mash you reach a point where the ball suddenly 'bursts' and the chain unfolds (The gelatinisation point) Interactions then form between adjacent chains which stops them coiling back up if it cools (eg If you were making Flacked maize/rice). This releases a lot more points for the enzymes to attack, unfortunately because all the grains don't do it at once and to ensure that you have made all the starch available you heat to boiling and boil for a time. Then you add the cereal mash back to the main mash where the majority of the amylase enzymes are.

The 65C rest allows the amylase enzymes from the small amount of malt to loosen up the cereal mash. When you first mix it, it is really thick and gloopy, and thickens (as the starch balls swell), then the enzymes work their magic and it all loosens up and becomes really runny, thats when you can boil it.

I do my mashes at 63-64C and then raise to 68-70C, why? Well quite simply that the volume of mash that I add to my main mash only raises the temperature by that amount. If I had a bigger cereal mash then I might get more of a temperature increase. Steve is quite right in that the traditional mash rest temps are 60 and 68C. Jeff now does his cereal mash in a 22qt pressure cooker, and once raised to boiling, he adds an additional amount of boiling liquor and pressure cooks the cereal mash for 10-15 minutes. This encourages melanoidin production, but also gives him more of a temperature rise. . . . . Not having had access to a large pressure cooker here in the UK I've not been able to try this to verify it.

Of course different tun setups respond in different ways, this works well in my mash tun but I can't say that you will get a bigger or smaller increase in your brewery.

[Rook]

Thanks Aleman for your help

Rook

[delboy]

I can't manage to find any corn/polenta over here in the wilds, what i can get though is popping corn, could i pop the corn in the microwave without any oil and use it in a cereal mash?

[Aleman]

It probably won't work. as the popping corn probably contains the 'germ' this contains oils and as such these oils can go rancid . . . not a pleasant flavour to carry over into the beer.

If you can't get say Natco Brand Corn meal from a big supermarket chain like tosscos, then yo can still use flaked maize and cereal mash it . . . it doesn't require it, but that doesn't say that you can't do it

[delboy]

It probably won't work. as the popping corn probably contains the 'germ' this contains oils and as such these oils can go rancid . . . not a pleasant flavour to carry over into the beer.

If you can't get say Natco Brand Corn meal from a big supermarket chain like tosscos, then yo can still use flaked maize and cereal mash it . . . it doesn't require it, but that doesn't say that you can't do it

Thanks for getting back aleman, i managed to pick up some polenta in the end anyway from an ethnic shop i stumbled upon

I'll save the popcorn for watching DVDs and supping homebrew

One final question, i have two lager yeasts at my disposal WLP830 (german lager yeast) and WLP802 (Czech Budejovice Lager Yeast) which of these would best suit the style?

[Aleman]

The one that gets rave reviews is the 833 German Bock. Of the two you have I would go for the German yeast rather than the Budejovice. I am having another go at building a large starter this weekend and then first dry day the following week, my CAP will be under way. . . . . I'll swap you if you like?

[steve_flack]

I've got a CAP on the go now as well. I used S-189 dried yeast and hopped with Horizon and B Saaz.

[6470zzy]

Great information, thanks for sharing. This will be my next beer once I do some serious drinking to give myself some cold storage space. My last attempt at this style came out really well but I used flaked maize rather than employing a ceral mash, this time, you have inspired me to use grits. By the way, you are the first person I have run into who likes Cluster hops. I am not a big fan of them however I know they are traditional in this style.

My first question for you concerns water chemistry. Certainly life would be easier if my water was softer but alas, I am dealing with moderately hard water that has both temporary as well as permanent hardness. Are you using really soft water or otherwise treating your brewing liquid? I try to get around this issue by using the 5.2 buffer in the mash and hopping with traditional noble hops to avoid harsh flavors in the beer. Do you have any suggestions for improvement?

The CAP I made last year would have won a first place ribbon except that the judges felt it needed more hop aroma. I was planning to aggressively dry hop this year's attempt with, most likely, Saaz. Do you think that heavy hop aroma is needed in a quality CAP or should I just disregard that suggestion?

Finally, I noticed that you suggest using a Bock yeast which I assume will accentuate the malt and leave the beer a little less attenuated. On the other hand, you mention that you want to mash for attenuation rather than body. I guess I'm a little slow but it seems like those two things would tend to work at cross purposes, is there something I'm missing?

Again, thanks for the information, I always learn something going through your posts.