Hi,
whilst reading several posts (including this 1 on Harveys BB ) I see that a number of people transfer their brew to a 2nd FV after 3-7ish days then allowing to finish in the 2nd FV.
It's something I'd thought of doing but although I'm careful always have in back of mind the old addage "more steps = more chance for mishap", in this case infection and/or aerating brew.
From experience, what are your reasons for doing this? How long do you keep brew in 1st FV, then 2nd FV? Any particular useful tips on getting this done safely?
Thanks
Paul
Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
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YeastWhisperer
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Technically, double-dropping is moving and aerating the beer after approximately 24 hours of fermentation. Most of the people that I know who still use a secondary fermentation vessel, including yours truly, wait for a few days after fermentation has subsided before racking to a secondary fermentation vessel for maturation. One has to seriously aerate unfiltered beer while transferring it to another vessel to cause harm because the yeast cells that are in suspension will rapidly consume any oxygen (O2) the gets dissolved during the transfer. The takeaway here is to move early or wait until active fermentation has subsided.
With respect to infection, the greatest threats to a batch of beer are poor handling of the yeast culture and poor pre-pitching sanitation. A yeast culture "owns" a batch of wort by rapidly consuming all of the dissolved O2; thereby, preventing aerobic microflora from growing. It then lowers the pH to around 4.2; thereby, preventing pH sensitive microflora from growing (the reason why pathogens do not grow in beer). The finally defense that a yeast culture mounts is the production of ethanol, which is toxic to all living organisms above a genetically-determined threshold, including the culture itself.
With respect to infection, the greatest threats to a batch of beer are poor handling of the yeast culture and poor pre-pitching sanitation. A yeast culture "owns" a batch of wort by rapidly consuming all of the dissolved O2; thereby, preventing aerobic microflora from growing. It then lowers the pH to around 4.2; thereby, preventing pH sensitive microflora from growing (the reason why pathogens do not grow in beer). The finally defense that a yeast culture mounts is the production of ethanol, which is toxic to all living organisms above a genetically-determined threshold, including the culture itself.
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Piscator
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Hi Paul,
From what little I know of "double dropping" it is as YeastWhisperer descibes i.e. done after about 24 hours of fermentation - I think I read somewhere it was traditionally supposed to be a way of leaving behind the trub lifted by the early krausen so that the beer ended up clearer and brighter.
I suspect that these days with highly refined copper finings (v's unrefined irish moss) and better processed malts that it would make little if any difference to the clarity of a finished beer which is why the process died out in commercial breweries. I'm also sure I read somewhere that the fermentation can be adversely affected if too many cells are "dropped" out too early on.
On another note moving beer off the yeast at 3-7 days seems a good way to risk getting some undesrable flavours to me - although the bulk of the fermentation in terms of alcohol production is largely done in this time, the yeast continues to process metabolites (by-products made earlier in the process while digesting sugars to make alcohol) some of which have funky flavours - as these are processed by the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter while the beer rests, the odd flavours are "cleaned up" by and large. By removing beer from the bulk of the yeast when racking it off so soon there can be too few cells left to clean up the beer in a sensible timescale. All of this varies with yeast strain as some tend to produce certain by-products in abundance while others don't. If using a "neutral" type of yeast you might get away with it (although even Notty can throw some interesting flavours when under pitched).
Cheers
Steve
From what little I know of "double dropping" it is as YeastWhisperer descibes i.e. done after about 24 hours of fermentation - I think I read somewhere it was traditionally supposed to be a way of leaving behind the trub lifted by the early krausen so that the beer ended up clearer and brighter.
I suspect that these days with highly refined copper finings (v's unrefined irish moss) and better processed malts that it would make little if any difference to the clarity of a finished beer which is why the process died out in commercial breweries. I'm also sure I read somewhere that the fermentation can be adversely affected if too many cells are "dropped" out too early on.
On another note moving beer off the yeast at 3-7 days seems a good way to risk getting some undesrable flavours to me - although the bulk of the fermentation in terms of alcohol production is largely done in this time, the yeast continues to process metabolites (by-products made earlier in the process while digesting sugars to make alcohol) some of which have funky flavours - as these are processed by the yeast in the bottom of the fermenter while the beer rests, the odd flavours are "cleaned up" by and large. By removing beer from the bulk of the yeast when racking it off so soon there can be too few cells left to clean up the beer in a sensible timescale. All of this varies with yeast strain as some tend to produce certain by-products in abundance while others don't. If using a "neutral" type of yeast you might get away with it (although even Notty can throw some interesting flavours when under pitched).
Cheers
Steve
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albion_king
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Currently brewing brew uk's DME recipe Road to Amarillo. Been happily fluffing away in primary for 6 days (now slowed right down) and I'd decided I would rack to secondary for the first time but having read a few opinions a lot of experienced brewers reckon it's not worth the risk. I'm happy enough that I'm capable of minimising infection risks in the process but Palmer reckons a glass carboy is the only way to go and I only have plastic. Clarity of my beer is not something I'm hugely concerned with at this early stage in my experience but was wondering what are the benefits of getting the beer off the trub? Be grateful for anyone's thoughts
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albion_king
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
*glugging not fluffing (I ain't no fluffer!) [DIZZY FACE]
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Piscator
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Glass carboys are popular fermenters in the USA in part because of their availability - however they are harder to find over here so have never caught on in the same way. The impervious nature of glass does give it some better characteristics over plastic when it comes to cleaning and longevity however the narrow neck on a carboy can make cleaning more difficult than with a wide necked fermenter. There is nothing wrong with plastic fermenters.... just remember NEVER to clean them using abrasive materials/products like scouring pads or kitchen cleaners like Cif. It is probably also worth accepting that potentially plastic vessels have a shorter working life and may need replacing from time to time if they pick up internal scuffs & scratches or become brittle. Quite a few micro's have plastic fermenters these days due to the reduced start-up costs.albion_king wrote:Currently brewing brew uk's DME recipe Road to Amarillo. Been happily fluffing away in primary for 6 days (now slowed right down) and I'd decided I would rack to secondary for the first time but having read a few opinions a lot of experienced brewers reckon it's not worth the risk. I'm happy enough that I'm capable of minimising infection risks in the process but Palmer reckons a glass carboy is the only way to go and I only have plastic. Clarity of my beer is not something I'm hugely concerned with at this early stage in my experience but was wondering what are the benefits of getting the beer off the trub? Be grateful for anyone's thoughts
Can you describe your process - e.g how long did you boil for, did you use copper finings etc? What makes you think there is a problem?
Cheers
Steve
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YeastWhisperer
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Glass carboys are slowly going the way of the do-do bird in the U.S. In my humble opinion, the newer Italian carboys are not made as well as the old Mexican carboys. There are more bubbles in the glass, and the glass seems to be a bit thinner.
With that said, plastic carboys (Better Bottles) are slowly replacing glass carboys for those who still use a secondary fermentation vessel, which is more accurately defined as a clearing or bright beer tank. A secondary fermentation vessel is a good thing to have when dealing with powdery strains, as powdery strains settle more rapidly after being racked off of the lees. The critical thing to take into account when racking to a secondary is head space. While suspended yeast cells will rapidly scrub any oxygen that gets dissolved by the transfer, and CO2 outgassing should purge the head space in the container, less head space is always better than more head space.
With that said, plastic carboys (Better Bottles) are slowly replacing glass carboys for those who still use a secondary fermentation vessel, which is more accurately defined as a clearing or bright beer tank. A secondary fermentation vessel is a good thing to have when dealing with powdery strains, as powdery strains settle more rapidly after being racked off of the lees. The critical thing to take into account when racking to a secondary is head space. While suspended yeast cells will rapidly scrub any oxygen that gets dissolved by the transfer, and CO2 outgassing should purge the head space in the container, less head space is always better than more head space.
Last edited by YeastWhisperer on Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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albion_king
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Thanks both. To be honest my post was more concerned with whether I should bother racking to secondary than the benefits of glass. I'm still trying to master getting hop flavour and aroma into my ale so clarity is currently a secondary concern. Is clarity the only thing that racking to secondary will give me or are there any other advantages to getting the wort off the yeast at the bottom of the FV?
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YeastWhisperer
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Racking to secondary can be beneficial if you plan to dry hop. It allows one to crop cleaner yeast from the primary, and dry hopping is more effective after the beer has been removed from the lees.
With respect to hop aroma and flavor, one should use varieties that have high oil contents. The problem with most hop brokers is that they are too cheap to spend the money to have their hops oil tested. Alpha acid ratings are one step away from being worthless when it comes to late hopping.
With respect to hop aroma and flavor, one should use varieties that have high oil contents. The problem with most hop brokers is that they are too cheap to spend the money to have their hops oil tested. Alpha acid ratings are one step away from being worthless when it comes to late hopping.
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albion_king
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
I plan to dry hop this beer and a BIPA I've currently got fermenting. Hadn't really considered secondary for the BIPA as clarity isn't an issue but if it helps the dry hop might it benefit this beer too?
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albion_king
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
Perhaps my opening question should have been "is there more to secondary fermentation than just making my beer clearer"? Appreciate your input
Re: Double dropping/racking beer to 2nd FV
The only time I rack to a secondary would be for re-using the yeast if I was dry hopping.albion_king wrote:Perhaps my opening question should have been "is there more to secondary fermentation than just making my beer clearer"? Appreciate your input