Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:05 pm

That was an interesting read, no worries about being off track. It's all related to the recipe book in reality.

I decided that I'd brew the Budvar Budweiser first then follow that up with a wheat beer. That will get me through to the early summer. I can then focus on the more autumnal winter brews. The Dubbel has certainly caught my attention. I wonder if the caramel flavours could be reproduced using a stove top pan for a more intense heat? I'm fairly sure this wouldn't be achieved on my (electric) set up.

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Eric » Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:53 pm

Brewedout wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:05 pm
That was an interesting read, no worries about being off track. It's all related to the recipe book in reality.

I decided that I'd brew the Budvar Budweiser first then follow that up with a wheat beer. That will get me through to the early summer. I can then focus on the more autumnal winter brews. The Dubbel has certainly caught my attention. I wonder if the caramel flavours could be reproduced using a stove top pan for a more intense heat? I'm fairly sure this wouldn't be achieved on my (electric) set up.

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I've never replicated a commercial beer to the point where it might be difficult to tell those apart. The only saving grace in that for me would be those commercial beers I would not desire to replicate. So from that, I would applaud your efforts for a stove top version that likely might produce a beer of similar characteristic and equal quality without being identical. I stuck exactly to Graham's recipe for the grist, even the white sugar, but used more hops and spread them through the boil rather than all for 90 minutes. I don't know when I'll brew it next, but it will likely be when lots of beer is in stock, allowing it time to fully mature. At present my thoughts are to reduce the chocolate malt and use other dark malt to get some fruitiness, plus replace the white sugar with something darker. Even so, the basic recipe is worth brewing in its own right.
Without patience, life becomes difficult and the sooner it's finished, the better.

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by f00b4r » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:01 pm

Brewedout wrote:The Dubbel has certainly caught my attention. I wonder if the caramel flavours could be reproduced using a stove top pan for a more intense heat? I'm fairly sure this wouldn't be achieved on my (electric) set up.
I’ve seen another homebrewer recommend the following technique for his award winning wee heavy and wonder if it might work well for the Dubbel (slightly adjusted to do on a stove top):

Drain the first few litres into a large stockpot and add the sugar. Boil aggressively until the caramel like roiling mass of bubbles climbs half way up the kettle, or until you’re too scared it’s gonna burn. Then add back to the main wort.

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Sun Feb 14, 2021 4:36 pm

f00b4r wrote:
Brewedout wrote:The Dubbel has certainly caught my attention. I wonder if the caramel flavours could be reproduced using a stove top pan for a more intense heat? I'm fairly sure this wouldn't be achieved on my (electric) set up.
I’ve seen another homebrewer recommend the following technique for his award winning wee heavy and wonder if it might work well for the Dubbel (slightly adjusted to do on a stove top):

Drain the first few litres into a large stockpot and add the sugar. Boil aggressively until the caramel like roiling mass of bubbles climbs half way up the kettle, or until you’re too scared it’s gonna burn. Then add back to the main wort.
Sounds like a good idea. The only downside is transferring v.hot liquids. Will have to be careful Image

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:00 pm

Eric wrote:
Brewedout wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 4:05 pm
That was an interesting read, no worries about being off track. It's all related to the recipe book in reality.

I decided that I'd brew the Budvar Budweiser first then follow that up with a wheat beer. That will get me through to the early summer. I can then focus on the more autumnal winter brews. The Dubbel has certainly caught my attention. I wonder if the caramel flavours could be reproduced using a stove top pan for a more intense heat? I'm fairly sure this wouldn't be achieved on my (electric) set up.

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I've never replicated a commercial beer to the point where it might be difficult to tell those apart. The only saving grace in that for me would be those commercial beers I would not desire to replicate. So from that, I would applaud your efforts for a stove top version that likely might produce a beer of similar characteristic and equal quality without being identical. I stuck exactly to Graham's recipe for the grist, even the white sugar, but used more hops and spread them through the boil rather than all for 90 minutes. I don't know when I'll brew it next, but it will likely be when lots of beer is in stock, allowing it time to fully mature. At present my thoughts are to reduce the chocolate malt and use other dark malt to get some fruitiness, plus replace the white sugar with something darker. Even so, the basic recipe is worth brewing in its own right.
To be honest nor have I, but it is probably futile to think that we ever can exactly match another brewers recipe. There are so many variables to influence how a beer turns out.
I have previously enjoyed making tweaks and changes (one at a time of course!) and seeing how they change the outcome. This is something I want to do more of rolling forwards, up to now I have spent a lot more time just brewing a recipe once before moving on. I've found that Graham Wheeler's recipes to be reliably good first time through (unlike other recipe books).

Talking of rich fruity flavours... One beer that I'd like to brew again is Russian Imperial Stout. One of Alemans posts from years ago got me started on that line. I have 8/9 Yr old stash of these left in the garage plus a keg of younger 6/7 Yr old yet to be bottled. Perhaps that could be the end of lockdown celebration beer Image.



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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:43 pm

So I finally got the time to brew the Budvar Budweiser clone, so far so good ImageImageImageImage

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Eric » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 pm

Pleased to read you've made great progress from aspiration to wort. I always enjoyed Budvar, but that seems like distant history in these times.

That wort looks great and I hope to hear how it progresses to the glass.
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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:29 pm

Thanks Eric, it was an enjoyable brew day.

It was unusually foamy during the boil, had to keep my eye on it and lift the funnel lid frequently. Normally this settles down after it comes to the boil, but not this time round. Normally I don't brew this pale, nor go single malt either, so possibly to do with this?

I managed to get some wyeast 2001pc Pilsner Urquell yeast which is limited production. The profile seemed to match the style well. But time will tell!

The next test will be my patience waiting the 3 month lagering time .

Mike


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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Eric » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:15 pm

Yes, higher protein malts can be a devil to handle. Too frequently I've lost most of my hops by adding them before the boiling wort settles. You want a decent boil to cleave the soluble and non-soluble nitrogens, but it's too easy to underestimate the forces at work.

Good luck with the yeast, they are so frequently the key and as you say, time will tell.

Can I suggest you might lager some in a 2 litre PET bottle laid on its side? That should clear more quickly while carbonation is monitored. 20P will buy a 2 litre bottle of water at the supermarket for that purpose and is ideal for comparison with bulk lagering. A PET bottle is usually OK for a month.
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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:39 pm

Hi Eric, that sounds rather like what was happening to me with the hops too. Had to keep stirring them back into the wort. Fortunately I didn't lose any over the edge of the boiler.

I hadn't considered the protein content of the grain, I do hope the effect carries over when I pour a pint of the finished product for a long lasting head. I used weyermann bohemian pilsner, seemed to be the closest I could get here to emulate the Budvar recipe. It would be interesting to compare the differences between a few variations, if I had the time, space and ability to drink up the volume of beer produced!

That's a good idea for the plastic bottle, I might give that a try. Is there an advantage to putting the bottle on its side rather than standing it up?



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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Eric » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:46 pm

Is there an advantage to putting the bottle on its side rather than standing it up?
Of course, less distance for yeast and other suspended matter to drop for the beer to clear. When bottling, only raise the top enough to avoid the beer emptying when the top is removed, when with care, no sediment will be transferred. Clear bottles are fine as long as they are kept out of any strong light and help avoid sediment transfer.
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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:17 pm

Eric wrote:
Is there an advantage to putting the bottle on its side rather than standing it up?
Of course, less distance for yeast and other suspended matter to drop for the beer to clear. When bottling, only raise the top enough to avoid the beer emptying when the top is removed, when with care, no sediment will be transferred. Clear bottles are fine as long as they are kept out of any strong light and help avoid sediment transfer.
Thanks Image That makes good sense.

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:32 pm

So I'm thinking about brewing an Octoberfest beer from the aforementioned Wheeler / Protz book.

Same type of question as before, has anyone brewed these and have an opinion to share?

I'm looking at p146 Hacker-Pschorr Octoberfest Marzen or perhaps p150 Spaten Octoberfest Marzen.

Many thanks

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by f00b4r » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:22 pm

Brewedout wrote:So I'm thinking about brewing an Octoberfest beer from the aforementioned Wheeler / Protz book.

Same type of question as before, has anyone brewed these and have an opinion to share?

I'm looking at p146 Hacker-Pschorr Octoberfest Marzen or perhaps p150 Spaten Octoberfest Marzen.

Many thanks

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I’ve not brewed either but I prefer the Hacker-Pschorr, if it helps.

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Re: Brewing lager from Wheeler/Protz European Beers at Home...

Post by Brewedout » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:42 am


f00b4r wrote:
I’ve not brewed either but I prefer the Hacker-Pschorr, if it helps.
Every bit of information is always useful Image

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