Blacksheep Riggwelter on the Jamil Show

[Barley Water]

If you think that there is a bias against adding sugar to beer in your neck of the woods, it is worse on this side of the pond. Back in the day when I started messing with this hobby, we got those big tins of malt extract and added two or three pounds of sugar to get to our original gravity. Most of the time, the beer had this unfortunate "twang" to it which most at the time attributed to the sugar. Of course, it was still better than the available swill being sold at the supermarket at the time and also, we didn't know any better. Anyway, many of the old timers remember those days and have a really big problem adding sugar believing that they would be going back to the afore mentioned "twang". Of course us old guys passed this "knowlege" on to the newer folks so this big bias was built up over time against using anything other than malted barley.

I personally believe that sugars and other adjuncts have a place in beer and in fact, there is much history to support that. After all, we are not in Germany so I don't see anything wrong with using ingredients other than malted barley. I really enjoy going to ethnic markets and finding wierd sugars (and spices also) to use, generally in Belgian type brews. Being a yankee, I also like to make historic American beers and that means adding corn (yes, you can make really good beer with fairly high percentages of corn in the grist). I especially like doing a ceral mash on corn grits and have used that technique when making historic American ales and CAP's, both of which come out great. I also don't have a problem using adjuncts for coloring, hell I use Carafa II all the time to darken things up, it really doesn't affect the taste when used in moderation. I really don't see any difference between doing that and using caramel for coloring, to me it's all the same. Anyway, I say this hobby is all about doing what ever "floats you boat" so why limit yourself when it comes to ingredient choices, the important thing is taste, however you get there.

[Dr. Dextrin]

If it does, I'm wondering what the explanation is. Convenient forgetfulness in the interview by the head brewer, perhaps?

It is very difficult to get brewers to admit to using sugar - I've had long experience of that - some will admit it privately but not publicly in their marketing material for example. You can usually tell by the O.G./F.G ratio, the attenuation. I am certain that Riggwelter has sugar in it.

If you listen to the way the brewer answers the question, he stutters a bit and says: No! No! No! No caramel. A convenient side-stepping of the question.

I agree the attenuation looks a bit iffy if you take the recipe from the interview literally, but he does go on a bit about a low mash temperature and a leisurely run-off and sparge to make the wort more fermentable. Plus, I've no idea how his yeast performs. But the thing that made me suspicious was the colour. If you use the figures given in the interview - grain percentages and EBC values are all given quite precisely - (along with the excellent Beer Engine software of course), then you get an EBC figure of about 70 for the beer. Whereas in the interview he says the target colour is 60 EBC.

Adding sugar would explain that discrepancy nicely as well as getting the FG about right.

I guess ingredient lists on packaging are there to tell you about the things they put in but would rather not admit to. Looks like they work.

[mysterio]

Flack, is that Adnams?

[steve_flack]

Might be.

[steve_flack]

But the thing that made me suspicious was the colour. If you use the figures given in the interview - grain percentages and EBC values are all given quite precisely - (along with the excellent Beer Engine software of course), then you get an EBC figure of about 70 for the beer. Whereas in the interview he says the target colour is 60 EBC.

I wouldn't trust software predicted colour calculations too much. There's far more to it than just the colour of the grains used. For example boil time, wort pH, etc all affect colour.

[Graham]

I can confirm that the bottled Riggwelter states on the label that it contains sugar. I had a look at a bottle while I was in town yesterday. Bit of a bummer for the Americans that the brewer forgot to mention it, as it is an American programme and the bottled version is the only version that Americans are likely to get. They seemed to clone it okay without the sugar though.

Wheeler's colour predictions come out okay; including the much criticised practice of adding a little black or brown malt in the recipe book to adjust to the specified colour. Here is the Jennings Cumberland Ale clone side-by-side with the real thing.
http://www.brew-it-yourself.co.uk/homeb ... hp?t=23155

I even managed to predict the head retention spot on

[steve_flack]

Wheeler's colour predictions come out okay; including the much criticised practice of adding a little black or brown malt in the recipe book to adjust to the specified colour. Here is the Jennings Cumberland Ale clone side-by-side with the real thing.
http://www.brew-it-yourself.co.uk/homeb ... hp?t=23155

Why are you talking about yourself in the third party?

I was trying to say that 70EBC predicted and 60EBC actual isn't that huge a difference and could easily be due to the calculation method used.

[Graham]

Why are you talking about yourself in the third party?

Because my user name does not have my surname in it, and it amuses me and my ego to get irate PM's from people telling me off for criticising Wheeler.

I was trying to say that 70EBC predicted and 60EBC actual isn't that huge a difference and could easily be due to the calculation method used.

Yes, it is too dark for quite wide variations to be noticeable anyway.

As it happens, home brewers do not seem to give a toss about colour until it comes to clones. It occurred to me, for the recipe book, that if the colour doesn't match then the eyes are going to take over from the brain and the whole beer will be deemed not cloned. So a fair amount of effort had to go into getting the colour as close as I could, hence all my delving into colour calculation stuff. Because many commercial brewers are forgetful when it comes to sugars and caramels, a lot of this cloning lark entails reverse engineering from known parameters; colour is one of those. In the recipe book I put Riggwelter at 58EBC, which was presumably their officially quoted colour.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Thanks for confirming the sugar Graham. Pity about that, not just for the Americans, but because these interviews seemed really good if they were getting at the truth behind how the beers were brewed. I think I'm a bit less confident about that now. Maybe they need Jeremy Paxman doing the interviewing?

In my experience the Beer Engine colour calculations are usually pretty close. Granted, other things can affect the colour a bit, but probably not much in a darker beer that gets most of its colour from a load of chocolate malt. In any case, it was just a matter of several things pointing in the same direction -> to the use of added sugar.

As it happens, the added sugar is good for me, as I'm brewing it now and it wouldn't have fitted in my MT if I hadn't put some sugar in the recipe.

[Tony01]

...and it amuses me and my ego to get irate PM's from people telling me off for criticising Wheeler.

heh heh!

[steve_flack]

Why are you talking about yourself in the third party?

Because my user name does not have my surname in it, and it amuses me and my ego to get irate PM's from people telling me off for criticising Wheeler.

Really??? I thought we all knew who you were. Oh well.

[coatesg]

I'm fairly sure the tour guide at Black Sheep even told us about the sugars they added when I was there in April - for the life of me I can't remember which sugar went into which beer though... at least one has white sugar and at least one has brown sugar....

[Graham]

Really??? I thought we all knew who you were. Oh well.

No! Many people have an opinion about what I am, but very few know who I am.

People on here come and go; there are several thousand new members since I joined and I do not post that often. I do get the occasional, surprised P.M when somebody puts two and two together. It is interesting to sort the member list into posting order and notice how many of the top posters have now gone. You (S_F) are number six on the list; Chris has just 100 posts to go to beat the top poster (without the previous Daab total). The top poster has long gone. And I am way down the list.

[awalker]

I for one like Graham

Not sure about that Wheeler chap though

[Antehelion]

I'm fairly sure the tour guide at Black Sheep even told us about the sugars they added when I was there in April - for the life of me I can't remember which sugar went into which beer though... at least one has white sugar and at least one has brown sugar....

The guy I had showing me round did mention the brown sugar in the Riggwelter, IIRC. I don't think I remember him mentioning white sugar though.. I was trying to quiz him for recipe ideas without being too blatant, but I think I should have just brought out the notepad and done it properly!

Some delicious beer there though. mmmmm