Bavarian weizenbier

[Hanglow]

No, you can just add more water to bring the temperature up, so it's an infusion step rather than a direct heat or decoction.

So start a quite thick mash for the first step at 45C for 45mins then add boiling water to bring the temperature up to 63C or so.

I think most brewing software have calculators for that, at least brewtarget does.


This is what that brewkaiser site says

"Hochkurz Mash:

Use a mash thickness of about 4 l/kg or 2 qt/lb. If you are using a hot water infusion to move from the maltose rest to the dextrinization rest aim for that mash thickness at the dextrinizaton rest. The mash out can be skipped if reaching it is too difficult.

Maltose rest : 63 *C (145 *F) for 35 min

dextrinization rest : 71 *C (160 *F) for 45 min

mash-out : 76 *C (169 *F)

An alternate mash option is the addition of a ferulic acid rest at 45 C (113 F) for 45 min. This rest emphasizes the ferulic acid esterase which increases the ferulic acid content of the wort. This ferulic acid, which is present in both wheat and barley malt, is converted to 4-Vinylguaiacol (4VG) by the Weissbier yeast. 4VG gives the beer the clove flavor and aroma. If this rest is used the acidulated malt should be added once the Maltose rest temp is reached since the ferulic acid esterase has a pH optimum that is above 5.7. The higher pH also limits the activity of the protoelytic enzymes.

But even without this rest I have been able to brew great Weissbiers that have a lot of the characteristic clove flavor and most of the time I use the aforementioned Hochkurz mash. This mash can be conducted as a decoction, infusion or direct heated step mash. "

[Barley Water]

Oh you have now openend Pandora's box. The reason to consider a step mash with a heffe is because the precursor to the compound that gives you the clove flavor will be produced if you mash around 100F or so for a bit. However, when you do a protien rest you can adversely affect the head of the beer so I wouldn't hold it there for too long (and yeah, you want a great big head on this stuff). While we are at it I also recommend a decoction, it will do good things for the mouthfeel of the beer (don't know why but it does) plus you'll generate some melonodins which is also a good thing.

For the original poster, here is why stressing the yeast might do some good things; all beer yeast, both lagers and ale yeast throw off by-products when reproducing. If you underpitch you are encouraging the yeast the replicate therefore getting more by-products which in this case is nice. This technique is also used by some of the monks over in Belgium to make the fine products they produce. For regular ales and especially for lagers of course the exact opposite is true since you want less by-products of fermentation in the beer creating a clearner product (in which case the trick is to make sure and pitch enough yeast).

[MashTim]

I've brewed 3 wheaties so far, none of which have been underpitched, all have been brewed between 18-20°C and all have had classic wheat flavours from 3 different types of Hefeweizen yeasts. Each one I have stepped mashed with ferulic rest, the latest one was also a single decoction.

I'm beginning to think this underpitching info could be a homebrewing myth and Kai Troisters experiment, whilst not conclusive, also seems to indicate a myth.

I think water profile, mash pH and fermentation temps have more of an effect on yeast activity and final flavour of wheat beer rather than underpitching, just as they do for just about every style of beer you can make.

[Barley Water]

When I start up about this stuff it's probably helpful to know where I coming from and then of course you can take it or leave it as you wish. I generally enter my stuff in contests (yeah, it's an American thing) so I am always looking for a slight edge that will hopefully make the beer better and if luck is running my way maybe I'll win something. Also, I'm speaking from experience however know that I have NOT done side by side tests or any other quasi scientific studies. Also, if a beer wins something in a contest that really doesn't mean it's the best, it just means that a couple of guys who drink too much liked it better than the other swill entered at the same time. If you gave the same guys the same beers a day later they way well come to a different conclusion although it is no accident that the same guys win these large contests consistently.

Now you ask, am I splitting hairs when talking about under-pitching; absolutely. Are there really differences in decocted versus non-decocted beers? I think so but again the differences are very slight and always subjective. Remember, I am trying to win a metal where there are maybe 30-40 entries. If you are just brewing for yourself and your friends and they like what you make it is highly likely not worth the trouble to mess with all this (although under-pitching is actually easier since you don't need to make a starter). Besides the competative aspects I enjoy the process so for me anyway the extra effort involved is fun and keeps me off the streets. I will however say that both underpitching and decoction are both items discussed in the homebrew literature so I am not the only homebrewer that practices some of this stuff. Finally I competely agree with the previous poster, fermentation temperature is absolutely much more important than all this other stuff; what I'm trying to do is make a good beer great (and having mixed results when trying to do so).

[MashTim]

When I start up about this stuff it's probably helpful to know where I coming from and then of course you can take it or leave it as you wish. I generally enter my stuff in contests (yeah, it's an American thing) so I am always looking for a slight edge that will hopefully make the beer better and if luck is running my way maybe I'll win something. Also, I'm speaking from experience however know that I have NOT done side by side tests or any other quasi scientific studies. Also, if a beer wins something in a contest that really doesn't mean it's the best, it just means that a couple of guys who drink too much liked it better than the other swill entered at the same time. If you gave the same guys the same beers a day later they way well come to a different conclusion although it is no accident that the same guys win these large contests consistently.

Now you ask, am I splitting hairs when talking about under-pitching; absolutely. Are there really differences in decocted versus non-decocted beers? I think so but again the differences are very slight and always subjective. Remember, I am trying to win a metal where there are maybe 30-40 entries. If you are just brewing for yourself and your friends and they like what you make it is highly likely not worth the trouble to mess with all this (although under-pitching is actually easier since you don't need to make a starter). Besides the competative aspects I enjoy the process so for me anyway the extra effort involved is fun and keeps me off the streets. I will however say that both underpitching and decoction are both items discussed in the homebrew literature so I am not the only homebrewer that practices some of this stuff. Finally I competely agree with the previous poster, fermentation temperature is absolutely much more important than all this other stuff; what I'm trying to do is make a good beer great (and having mixed results when trying to do so).

It's the beauty of homebrewing and experimentation

I think wheat beers are one of the easiest to brew but quite a difficult one to get 'right' or consistent and it's always good to hear about other peoples experiences

[banjokat]

I seem to remember reading a few years back, that the general consensus was to make a bigger starter for a wheaty. I might try under pitching in future. However I've just made one pitching near enough the correct amount, according to the yeastcalcs online using WLP 380. I've fermented it at 20c all the way. I'll let you know how it comes out once bottled.

@Barley Water, I like reading your posts, you obviously know your stuff but I do wish you'd stop talking in that fahrenheit nonsense

[Barley Water]

Sorry dude, I just can't get myself to think in centagrade or metric either for that matter. I really wish I would though because it's certainly easier to the the math your way. Of course I blame the British for that; after all you started us off that way before you converted.

[Hanglow]

I've got quite good at jumping between the two

I prefer mash temps in F usually, no decimal places to mess about with at the scale we use them