St Austell's Tribute

[chrisr]

I've been doing a bit of research into stopping fermentation early and it seems:
1/ It's very difficult to do (without industrial-type processing) - the yeast just starts up again when it gets suitable conditions
2/ The concensus seems to be 'don't do it' - fix your beer at source

So I'm going to try a different tack. I'm abandoning St A yeast and buying in one that claims to produce malty beers (White Labs English Ale). I'm also going to up the Munich Malt a bit, to 25%. Maybe Cornish Gold behaves differently to Munich in the mash. If this doesn't produce the goods - or thereabouts - next I'll be upping the mash temperature to 68-69C.

[sexysouthwest]

What was the final recipe which was decided as best please...

[weiht]

After 1 full circle, i think the standard rule not to mess about with is that the og should be kept low at abt 1042-1044. The ibu according to chrisr is about 25, n personally I would prefer to use less fuggles at the start n extract more ibu from the 15mins willametter addition, there is a distinct flavor from this hop. Also styrians steep at 80c should not be too much, I use about 30-35g. Styrians doesn't taste v nice when dry hopped. I will stick mainly with just Maris otter and Munich malt, I tried crystal before but I would exclude it. I also would recommend to use more munich for a bigger malt flavour, I agree with chrisr that cornish gold may be a stronger variant of Munich. I Mash at 66 or 67c.

Yeast that I tried was nottingham, wyeast London ale iii n London esb. Nottingham was most memorable but then this yeast had alot of quality problem n I stopped using it. London ale iii was too dry, n esb was ok. I still have not gotten the yeast part right. I ferment at about 22c

Hope this helps

[SMASH3R]

Just a note regarding the sweetness of the brew; sugarwise, this can only be achieved by adding non-fermentable sugars to the brew.
It was my understanding that once a brew has fermented from about 1040 to 1020, whilst residual sugars will remain available for the yeast to work on, they will not be detectable by the palate. Increasing the mash temperature will increase more complex sugars that are harder for the yeast to break down, but it won't increase palatable sweetness per-say.

I agree with the earlier poster that Cornish Gold malt might have a different character, and we should try to compensate for that with recipes changes whilst keeping our particular processing the same. The yeast will have a big impact on the finished beer, and I was surprised with my earlier attempt at how good the Muntons gold yeast was for this beer. My latest batch is trying S-05; I didn't fancy Nottingham because I don't think the taste of that is right for this beer.
I would also note that fresh Willamette hops lend quite a lot of sweetness to the beer, so maybe try adding a bit more late Willamette for an apparent sweetness?

[chrisr]

The 25 IBU is from the horse's mouth. It was referring to the full boil only, not any later additions.

I would say a target OG of 1044. At least 20% Munich malt.

I would be fairly confident saying St A don't add any sugar to the brew. It's just not what he would do. They must get the sweetness some other way.

As regards the yeast, yes, it is an important part. I believe you don't want a highly efficient yeast. I'm going to try White Labs English Ale next.

As I've thought about it more, I wonder if the St Austell yeast I used is a subset/variant/derivative of the real, whole thing, as it was retrieved from a pint of Tribute. So maybe what was still active yeast at that stage is the bit that thrives on the last of the fermentables and continues working when the bulk of the yeast has already finished and died off. And I bred my starter from that. Anyhow, decided to ditch that after the last brew.

[SMASH3R]

My latest attempt of this recipe is as follows for 28 litres in the barrel/bottles:
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.30 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (4.5 EBC) Grain 81 %
1.00 kg Munich Malt (20.0 EBC) Grain 19 %
70.00 gm Fuggles [3.80 %] (70 min) Hops 23 IBU
25.00 gm Williamette [6.70 %] (10 min) Hops 5 IBU
15.00 gm Williamette [6.70 %] (0 min) Flame out hops
15.00 gm Styrian Goldings [3.20 %] (0 min) Flame out hops

Original Gravity: 1.045 SG
Final Gravity: 1.012 SG
Alcohol by Vol: 4.30 %

Mashed at 70°C for 90 mins
Added 6g of gypsum to the mash and to the boil
Added 1.5g of calcium chloride to the mash and 1.5g salt to the boil.

Fermented from 16°C to 21°C for two weeks. Held at 16°C for another week. No dry hopping.

Well, this beer is certainly drinkable, and as a session beer it is fantastic. Out of the pressure barrel I get great head, and lacing all the way down the glass. The smell of the beer is really malty as it warms up, and it has quite a fruity, firm bitterness (possibly as a result of the water treatment). However, it's no St. Austell Tribute. Whilst some aspects of this beer are better than my first attempt (better quality and colour), the beer is further away. It somehow reminds me of a blend somewhere between cask Boddingtons and Summer Lightening. Odd, but very drinkable, so not too upset

I think this is primarily down to two reasons:
1. The hopping schedule has been changed, including the omission of late hopping on my latest attempt. When I brew this again, I will recreate my original hopping schedule, possibly using bramling X again instead of Willamette. I know St. A use Willamette, but the first beer I brewed has a real Tribute character to it. The only small change I would make to my original hop schedule would be to increase all of the hops except the fuggle by 10-15% (reduce the fuggle accordingly).
2. The yeast was different. I have just used S-05 and previously used Munton's Premium Gold yeast. Regardless of which live yeast should be used, I had good results with the premium gold yeast except that the flavours were too weak. Correct, but just too week. This might be improved by the use of 19% Munich malt (instead of the Vienna/crystal botch) and increased hopping rates.
I think the change of malts to the correct ratios and malts has been a big plus. Colour is spot on.

When I brew this again, it will be something like this:
Pale Malt 80%
Munich Malt 20%
Fuggle 70 mins 15 IBU
Bramling X(Willamette) 15 mins 12 IBU
Styrian Golding 0 mins 25g
Dry hop in primary after 1 week with 25g each of Bramling X(Willamette) and Styrian Goldings. Leave for another 2 weeks
Use Munton's Premium Gold Yeast

Good luck to everyone trying to clone this beer.

[weiht]

spot on about cutting the fuggles and upping the willamette. I will do away with dry hopping as i didnt get gd results with styrians in the FV, it does add a vegetable kinda of taste to it. 0 mins steep for 20 mins will be sufficient, i think more than 25 mins and it will have a diminishing effect.

I'd be going for 25-30 percent munich. Its one of the most difficult clones to get right

[chrisr]

Interesting comments about replacing Willamette with Bramling Cross.

Like weiht, I'd say careful with the Styrians dry hopping - they can be vicious! I had a nasty grassy/veggy smell and taste when I tried it, it was horrible. I wouldn't dry hop with Styrians again.

One other factor: the form of the hops. I'd guess most people, like me, are using the vac-packed hops. I don't know what form St A use in Tribute, but I do know from when I went on a tour that they have a hop store, with hops in big sacks. (And it reeks of hops!) So I guess they are probably whole and not processed in any way. This could be another difference between the real thing and what we produce.

[weiht]

Hey chrisr, its kinda ironic how u mentioned that we were trying to rip roger off his recipe while the original name of the beer was daylight roberry!!! lol, i had the weirdest dream the other night about me being in st ives and having a pint of tribute, darn then i woke up

[weiht]

Roger Ryman wrote:

Rich,

For Cornish Gold malt, use Munich malt at about 20%.
Fuggles hops are used for bittering - target 25 IBU. Styrian Goldings and Willamette late hops at about 1 lb per barrel.
Have fun brewing,
Regards,
Roger

Roger Ryman

Brewing Director / Head Brewer


Based on another thread which quoted roger ryman, i think i will probably try this recipe this week.

75% efficiency for 23L batch
tgt OG 1042-1044
tgt ibu 25
3.2kg Maris Otter
1.2kg Munich
30g fuggles 60mins
30g willamette 15 mins
15g willamette 10 mins
35g styrian 80c 20mins steep

based on 1 lb per barrel, i guess my late hops should be just about there. Steep only for 20 mins and no longer as i feel it may have a diminishing effect after that. wish me luck

[garwatts]

Good luck Let us know how it goes......

[micmacmoc]

Just as an aside I hear that St Austell are to discontinue 'Tinners' and make HSD only a winter brew. The Tribute and Proper Job are such wondeful ales its annoying when you go to a St Austell pub only to find the (comparatively) dull ales on offer. The Admirals Ale is superb too, its frustrating that so few St Austell houses offer it. I'm quite tempted to give the Tribute a go...then again as I only have to go into the village to get a 'real' one....ok I'll stop before you all start throwing things at me!
Roger Ryman though, top fella eh?

[chrisr]

What a shame!

I wouldn't say either of those are 'dull'. You want to come and try drinking around here (north Derbyshire) for a while. I was at the Chesterfield Beer Festival last Saturday and both of us came away thinking 'that was boring'. The majority of the beers there were much of a muchness; I think you'd struggle to tell them all apart in a blind tasting!

While I can understand HSD being a winter brew (it really isn't a hot weather drink!) Tinners is a lovely beer and is great to sink when you're hot. The wife prefers it to Tribute, and I can appreciate that pov. The loss of Tinners is not a good thing IMHO. When it's available (which I have noticed over the past year, hasn't been as often as it was) I frequently alternate between Tinners and Tribute. They seem to complement and contrast each other.

<cynic>Maybe there's more profit to be had in the Tribute.</cynic>

Top fella: indeed he is, as I put it at The Celtic beer fest: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2 ... 08a1cbee66 That's me in the first picture with the white sweatshirt - read the logo. (Yes, sad, I know )

Back to brewing, there's another factor us would-be-Rogers should think about - beer's largest ingredient - water. This has been a bit of thing for me, since I discovered what not having a proper water analysis can do to beer, as a result of water (mis)treatment. The mineral balance can change a beer tremendously. I believe St A get their water from an old mine adit off the the western side of St Austell river valley (off the Bodmin Road) IE when collected it is completely raw, unprocessed, untreated water. According to the geological maps, that hill is granite. Water collected from granite ground (or slate, come to that) has very low concentrations of salts and is very soft. So the source water has no chlorine/chloromine, very low calcium, magnesium, sulphate, etc etc. So it can be treated to be exactly what the brewer wants. Unless you have your own private water source, or are very lucky, you'd struggle to replicate the St A water.

(It's one of my pet beliefs that a truly great beer results when a brewer hits upon a beer that suits his 1/ water & 2/ brewing equipment)

[micmacmoc]

Great pics, how I wish I could have been there, the daft monkeys are old friends and blimey! lots of familiar Mevagissey faces there!
I think 'comparatively' dull is about right, Tribute and Proper Job are so good they leave most other ales standing.
You are so right about the water, I'm blessed with the softest, cleanest water imaginable, this seems well suited for my fave: golden high hopped ales. I could'nt be happier with it. I understand that theres a spring at St Austell brewery, the water coming from deep below the granite landscape. It seems at odds with the traditional mining around here: china clay but I'm sure theres a geological reason for these to be side by side?

[weiht]

I read somewhere that they do burtonise the water some what. Also, i think the water should not be too hard as it make the bitterness too pronounced and harsh for this beer. Another thing about the hop aroma is chilling the wort. One thing i found out in my recent properjob brew was that even though i added loads of late willamette and cascade hops, i end up with a beer which doesnt justify that amount of hops added late. I concluded that my wort chilling process is lacking, and by the time my wort cools, i have lost much of the oils, and probably added more bitterness. Tap temperature here is about 30c, so chilling is a bitch.