East India Porter

[seymour]

I insist these re-discovered facts ought to lead to some BJCP style guideline revisions (especially when it comes to English brown ale categories), if they want to remain credible.

They will be taken into account in style guideline revisions. Trust me.

GOOD! I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW HAPPY THAT WILL MAKE ME.

[alikocho]

I insist these re-discovered facts ought to lead to some BJCP style guideline revisions (especially when it comes to English brown ale categories), if they want to remain credible.

They will be taken into account in style guideline revisions. Trust me.

GOOD! I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW HAPPY THAT WILL MAKE ME.

Was one of the reasons I became part of the BJCP Board of Directors and am the BJCP's international coordinator.

[seymour]

...Was one of the reasons I became part of the BJCP Board of Directors and am the BJCP's international coordinator.

Well then, it's a pleasure to meet you, I have huge respect for you, and I wish you the utmost success. Needless to say, it's high time for some major revisions.

I just can't comprehend, for instance, how Kristin England can work so closely with Ron Pattinson to reproduce historic English ales from actual brewery logs, yet he remains so entangled with BJCP education initiatives which perpetuate contradictory nonsense. I wish I could be a fly on the wall for some of your board discussions.

[Belter]

At the risk of starting an angry debate....... can we try and make sure Cascadian Dark Ale never gets a place in BJCP guidelines. Afaik it is being considered? *hides*

[seymour]

At the risk of starting an angry debate....... can we try and make sure Cascadian Dark Ale never gets a place in BJCP guidelines. Afaik it is being considered? *hides*

+1

[alikocho]

At the risk of starting an angry debate....... can we try and make sure Cascadian Dark Ale never gets a place in BJCP guidelines. Afaik it is being considered? *hides*

Why do you not want it in the guidelines?

Its one of the things on the table. It may not get defined.

[Belter]

In my opinion.... You could make an equivalent beer if you made an IPA and put black food colouring in it. It isn't a style at all.... Just a black coloured IPA. I know Charlie Bamforth talks about how colour affects flavour perception in beer but... I think a black ipa is ridiculous in creation and concept.

[Belter]

Just to follow up. On one website about the style is says.

"Flavor – A balance between citrus like and spicy Northwest hop flavor, bitterness, caramel and roast, chocolate, or Carafa® type malts. Any roast character should be subdued. Black malt is acceptable at low levels but should not be astringent. Any burnt character is not appropriate. The finish should be dry with caramel malt as a secondary flavor. Diacetyl should not be present. The main emphasis should be on hop flavor."

And

"Comments – Some brewers prefer to cold steep the dark grains to achieve a very dark beer without the tannin contribution of adding these grains to the mash. The use of Sinamar® color extract to enhance the color is common. "

[alikocho]

In my opinion.... You could make an equivalent beer if you made an IPA and put black food colouring in it. It isn't a style at all.... Just a black coloured IPA. I know Charlie Bamforth talks about how colour affects flavour perception in beer but... I think a black ipa is ridiculous in creation and concept.

You could, but there is a range of interpretations of the style. Some are fairly roasty, with some bordering on hoppy stouts and porters.

[Belter]

In my opinion.... You could make an equivalent beer if you made an IPA and put black food colouring in it. It isn't a style at all.... Just a black coloured IPA. I know Charlie Bamforth talks about how colour affects flavour perception in beer but... I think a black ipa is ridiculous in creation and concept.

You could, but there is a range of interpretations of the style. Some are fairly roasty, with some bordering on hoppy stouts and porters.

We already have style guideline for those though right? Or do we not?

[Matt12398]

If it does get added I hope it goes by the Cascadian Dark title and black IPA doesn't become an actual recognised beer style. It winds me up. A hoppy beer with a subtle roast character is nice. An IPA that is coloured black but for all other intents and purposes is identical to a pale ale is just pointless.

[Belter]

If it does get added I hope it goes by the Cascadian Dark title and black IPA doesn't become an actual recognised beer style. It winds me up. A hoppy beer with a subtle roast character is nice. An IPA that is coloured black but for all other intents and purposes is identical to a pale ale is just pointless.

According to here: http://byo.com/india-pale-ale/item/2013 ... n-dark-ale
'India black ale'

[seymour]

...You could, but there is a range of interpretations of the style. Some are fairly roasty, with some bordering on hoppy stouts and porters.

But that is already a thing: India Porter, just as legitimately as India Pale Ale. There should simply be another Porter subcategory. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about! Why must we act like it's a new style which needs new definitions?

I've heard people say a Black IPA should smell and taste exactly like a regular IPA, that you should be able to close your eyes and not tell the difference. I'm with Belter, what's the point of that? Drink your IPA from a black plastic cup if that's the only difference. On the other hand, if that's not the only difference, and more bready, toasty, roasty, caramelly aspects are allowed, then we're back to my previous point from the mid-to-late 1800s: India Porter.

And the Cascadian title is just stupid. Are we supposed to believe only Cascade hops produce the correct aromas for a hoppy dark ale, or only American hops grown in the Cascade mountain range…? C'mon, what about all the new, even more aromatic varieties from Australia and New Zealand, not to mention the exciting new breeding programs in England, Slovenia, Germany, South Africa, etc?

Can't we please move beyond the Black IPA vs. Cascadian Dark Ale argument already? I don't always agree with Greg Koch of Stone, but this article brought me around:

http://www.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-mus ... -black-ipa

And then, an inarticulate interviewer tried to harass Koch about it, and was pretty thoroughly shot down in this video:

http://www.newschoolbeer.com/search?q=g ... +interview

[DeGarre]

...

You could, but there is a range of interpretations of the style. Some are fairly roasty, with some bordering on hoppy stouts and porters.

While you're at it, might as well amalgamate stout and porter too.

[alikocho]

...You could, but there is a range of interpretations of the style. Some are fairly roasty, with some bordering on hoppy stouts and porters.

But that is already a thing: India Porter, just as legitimately as India Pale Ale. There should simply be another Porter subcategory. This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about! Why must we act like it's a new style which needs new definitions?

Well, India Porter was as thing, but is now a style produced as a historical throwback by a small number of people. I'm not convinced it does need a definition as a distinct style at this time, and I'd be interested to see how you might define it as not fitting the broad profile of the existing porter subcategories (incidentally, I'll note here that there will be a correction made on Baltic Porter as there are several historical errors that my research has thrown up).

As to the Black IPA. I don't think they should be simply black coloured IPA's, in exactly the same way as a Schwarzbier shouldn't simply be a black Pilsner. But they aren't strictly India Porters, IMO, as the focus on the beer is hop flavour (and generally citrus, pine and tropical flavours from New World hops), whereas the historical India Porter's weren't focussed in that way. They are, to my mind, quite different beasts in this regard. Look at the recipe in the original post - yes that porter is bitter, but where are the flavour and aroma hop additions that we would associate with an IPA (pale or otherwise)? Just 'cos it was brewed for export to India, doesn't necessarily mean that it exhibits all of the same traits of an IPA (and one should note that Ron Pattinson has some very good posts about what historical IPA's were like).

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