Betty Stoggs - Clone

[Kegman]

Just been doing some reading about the hop bursting. Considering you load the boil with hops late to maintain the hoppy taste rather than boiling it away and considering this clone is light on that particular hoppy taste, do you think it may be an idea to do this brew with the hop bursting method?

[Troutman47]

I've quickly scanned the interview mentioned here with Skinners brewery could do with another pair of eyes!
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33262&p=377666&hili ... gs#p377666

[Kegman]

I've quickly scanned the interview mentioned here with Skinners brewery could do with another pair of eyes!
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=33262&p=377666&hili ... gs#p377666

Just read the whole thing, it's a good article but not a lot of clues in there unfortunately! Here's what I put in another thread based on information taken from that article and elsewhere:

From a bit of Googling I've found that Betty Stoggs was made from blending Skinners Cornish Knocker & Best Bitter, plus also this nugget of information:
The Good Bottled Beer Guide, (Camra) says Cornish Knocker uses northdown ans styrian goldings, so I guess s.g are the finishing hops.
So I'm thinking of using just Pale Malt with these hops.

I think it was the citric qualities of Challenger that made me add that hop. It's possible Skinners Best Bitter is made with 3 completely different hops, who knows?

[Troutman47]

http://www.brewuk.co.uk/forum/topic/ski ... ewery-tour

Here's an interesting read from someone who had a tour of Skinners brewery.

He say's they use Target as well as Northdown and Challenger and saw lots of SG and Cascade!

I'll tell you what though Keggy, this beer might not taste like Betty's but it's bloody good!!

Congrats on the recipe!!

[Troutman47]

The article says they mash for 60 mins at 70ºC so what affect does 70º have on the grist?
I usually do 66º for 90 mins then top up with more liquor raising the temp to 77º for another 15 mins, then batch sparge.

They also add bittering hops at the start of boil then again at 30 mins then boil for a further 75 mins then it's transferred at 100º onto aroma hops for 30 mins before cooling.

So i'm thinking Target and Northdown at the start, as the bitterness is quite pronounced, Challenger at 30 mins and a whack of SG at flame out.

What d'you reckon?

[Kegman]

http://www.brewuk.co.uk/forum/topic/ski ... ewery-tour

Here's an interesting read from someone who had a tour of Skinners brewery.

He say's they use Target as well as Northdown and Challenger and saw lots of SG and Cascade!

Excellent find, sounds like a great tour! Really chuffed I managed to guess Challenger too

I'll tell you what though Keggy, this beer might not taste like Betty's but it's bloody good!!

Congrats on the recipe!!

Aw, thanks, glad you like it Based on this I think Betkeg it has to be although I feel it needs a second part to the name... Betkeg Gold? Betkeg Hopper? How about Stogsy Betkeg?!

The article says they mash for 60 mins at 70ºC so what affect does 70º have on the grist?
I usually do 66º for 90 mins then top up with more liquor raising the temp to 77º for another 15 mins, then batch sparge.

We have a difference then, I mash at 66º for 60 min, drain right down, add the rest of the liquor at 77º for 15 mins, then drain that. PM me and we can swap bottles

They also add bittering hops at the start of boil then again at 30 mins then boil for a further 75 mins then it's transferred at 100º onto aroma hops for 30 mins before cooling.

So i'm thinking Target and Northdown at the start, as the bitterness is quite pronounced, Challenger at 30 mins and a whack of SG at flame out.

What d'you reckon?

Sounds good to me, I also wonder if a bit more SG is needed?

[Kegman]

The original EBU was 30, according Graham Wheeler's BYOBRA Ruddles Best & Marstons Pedigree are 35 which I think is a pretty good target (no hoppy pun intended).

Target is quite bitter according to the Beer Engine so I've gone for:

Styrian Goldings 30 min 6 grams (Post boil)
Challenger 60 mins 22 grams
Northdown 90 mins 9 grams
Target 90 mins 5 grams

Which gives us 35 EBU.

What do you reckon?

[Troutman47]

I'll tell you what Keggy, I've been looking through GW's book and also on Beer Alchemy at my own recipe IPA.

Now then, I'm drinking Black Sheep Best Bitter tonight, nice pint, EBU 31, no where near as bitter as BS
My own IPA, IBU 44.1 (what's the difference between IBU and EBU?) the problem here is I've drank it all, it was that good!! (self praise is no recommendation!! )
But I don't think it had the same bitterness as BS!

I've stopped while typing this and got a bottle of beer from the airing cupboard and quickly cooled it. This is the hop bursting beer using Cascade.
I realised that I hadn't said that Cascade was seen in the Skinners Brewery as well. Tasting my beer I reckon there is some in BS.

I reckon it needs more hops,
So, how about, Target + Northdown, 15g of each, all of boil
Challenger 12g, 30 mins into boil
SG + Cascade 11g of each at 5 mins from end or flame out

IBU 44 !

[Kegman]

I reckon it needs more hops,
So, how about, Target + Northdown, 15g of each, all of boil
Challenger 12g, 30 mins into boil
SG + Cascade 11g of each at 5 mins from end or flame out
IBU 44 !

Dunno what the difference is between IBU and EBU but the Beer Engine says this will be 52 EBU, far higher than any other beer in Graham's book. 45 EBU if you just do the last 2 for 5 minutes then cool. Still seems a bit high to me, I'm not convinced bitterness is what it needs, hoppyness (if that's a word) is what it's lacking IMO.

[Troutman47]

PM sent.

Big difference in IBU/EBU between Beer Alchemy and Beer Engine.

I don't know how BE works but on BA I've inputted my inventory with the AA for each hops and that's how it calculates the IBU's.

I had 60g of Bramling Cross all of boil
25g of Fuggles 15 mins from end
25g of Goldings at flame out
IBU 44 and wasn't overly bitter.

How would you describe the taste of Betty's?

I did find it hoppy but also a long lingering bitterness which is why I think it needs more hops.

I'm pi$$ed off i'm doing the mother in laws kitchen this w/e cuz i'd like to make this again

[Kegman]

I think the bitterness of Betty's comes later, as you say, but do you think it's because your taste buds are overwhelmed by the hops first?

[Troutman47]

I think I should buy some more betty's (meaning more than one!) and do some more taste testing and also compare it against my hop bursting beer that's got cascade in.

In the meantime I'll keep drinking my version of... 'the Stog' (said in a Jeremy Clarkson voice!)

[Troutman47]

Hi Keggy,
Been looking at this today, still a bit unsure about the Target due to the high AA.
I'm thinking about dropping it to 8grams but not changing the Northdown.

Below comes out at 36 IBU's on BA, if I changed the Target to 8g it drops down to 33.5

Hops
Variety Alpha Amount IBU Form When
UK Northdown 8.0 % 10 g 8.2 Loose Whole Hops All Of Boil
UK Target 10.5 % 10 g 10.7 Loose Whole Hops All Of Boil
UK Challenger 7.0 % 12 g 8.0 Loose Whole Hops 60 Min From End
Slovenian Styrian Goldings 2.7 % 14 g 0.0 Loose Whole Hops At turn off
US Cascade 4.5 % 9 g 0.0 Loose Whole Hops At turn off

Gonna do a single infusion at 70ºC for 60 mins and a 90min boil

What do you think?

[Kegman]

Gotta be worth a try, is the "single infusion at 70ºC for 60 mins" your mash?

[Troutman47]

Yes it is, I think what I'm gonna do is split the quantity of liquor I would have for the top up (mash out) between the mash and batch sparge and have a wetter mash.
Something that was mentioned in the thread I started viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53015, when asking what affect does 70ºC have on the mash, interesting answers actually and has meant I've had to spend nearly a fiver on Ph papers!

So the single infusion is copying the same as Skinners.

Interestingly enough greenxpaddy had a tour of Skinners recently and posted on here under the title of 'brewery tour' i think it was, it seems like they're trying to hide some of the hops away! lol!

Planning on making this tomorrow, I'm leaning towards 8g of Target.

4 days without a beer I'm fed up with mixed berry squash and I can't find one made from malt and hops!

I'll let you know how brew day goes.

Cheers