beyond the pale?

[Gurgeh]

Inspired by what Matt did recently here, I thought I might try a Kolsch.

...but the yeast is over a fiver and my water is hard.

so I thought about going for the same grain bill as the Kolsch, using mittelfruh to 23IBU and using Crouch Vale yeast.

Now there's the rub - the CV yeast is clearly not going to do the same thing as the WLP029, but just how different would the resulting beers be - bearing in mind the water also...?

The CV yeast is, imo, a super clean and very hard worker and accentuates hoppiness - I always ferment at 18C anyway, so there's some similarity to the WLP029...

Also, I've not had a madly hoppy lager before - is that for a reason, or can i go for a massive late hopping with the mittlefruh?

[steve_flack]

Kolsch's aren't hoppy at all. Maybe you're thinking of alts? Not that they're all bitter hop monsters either.

To me, Kolschs seem like the ale version of a Munich Helles lager - a clean, malt focused, not much hops, slam several pints on a hot day sort of beer.

The yeast is pretty important as there's not much else in a Kolsch, lager malt and a bittering addition of noble hops. You can use US-05 and it will be close but will be more of a blonde ale than a Kolsch.

[Gurgeh]

I tried some of that Meantime Kolsch and no, it wasn't hoppy. I never have had a hoppy lager.

I'm only inspired by the Kolsch - I will be doing a malty beer with 90% lager malt, 5% munich, 5% wheat. I will aim for 23IBU, ferment at 18C, cold condition, force carbonate and bottle bright in about 60x280ml lager bottles!

I don't have a problem with using 100g of mittlefruh in a 5gallon brew if you guys don't see it as being a problem!

not sure about using the US-05 though DaaB... I've got 140g of lovely CV yeast just sitting in the fridge. will the difference be obvious to the masses?

[Gurgeh]

right ho chief!

I'll get some of that then!

[monk]

This is sort of off topic, but I had a very peculiar experience with every Kolsch I've ever had. The first time was a Kolsch made by Pyramid Brewing, and after 1 bottle I got all flushed in the face, but mottled. I looked like I had a huge birth mark over half my face. Kinda disturbing! I figured it was the particular beer, because it never happened again...until I had another Kolsch! This one was brewed by a different company, and was a German import, I believe. Same mottled face situation. Embarrassing but mostly funny. Maybe it's not a bad thing that you can't get ahold of that Kolsch yeast!

[steve_flack]

I'm only inspired by the Kolsch - I will be doing a malty beer with 90% lager malt, 5% munich, 5% wheat. I will aim for 23IBU, ferment at 18C, cold condition, force carbonate and bottle bright in about 60x280ml lager bottles!

I don't have a problem with using 100g of mittlefruh in a 5gallon brew if you guys don't see it as being a problem!

not sure about using the US-05 though DaaB... I've got 140g of lovely CV yeast just sitting in the fridge. will the difference be obvious to the masses?

That will make a fine beer but it won't be a Kolsch style beer. Given what you planning to do with the hops, the yeast choice is academic really - anything clean would work well. It should be a nice summer ale.

BTW, a Kolsch is an ale not a lager.

Daab, I'm well aware that Jamil recommends US-05 as the dry yeast for his Kolsch recipe but that's because it is the nearest dry yeast to a genuine Kolsch yeast. I'm sure he'd recommend using the liquid if you could. Kolsch's are very simple beers and so the ingredient selection becomes more critical...as does the way you make them. Any mistakes will show up as there's nowhere to hide.

[Gurgeh]

That will make a fine beer but it won't be a Kolsch style beer. Given what you planning to do with the hops, the yeast choice is academic really - anything clean would work well. It should be a nice summer ale.

Hmm... About turn again then!

I had just decided overnight that if I was going to do a kolsch i might as well do it properly - wlp029 and everything.

but in light of that, I reckon that if I just did what I proposed, then I could have some normal bottles, normally conditioned for myself and a load of highly carbonated 280ml bottles which can be chilled below the taste threshold for my in-laws. They will only look for 'ooh that's a nice foamy head' and 'ahh that's lovely and cold' anyway. pedants.

[mysterio]

Alternatively, there is Safale K-97, which is supposedly a top-fermenting German ale yeast - maybe the 'K' stands for Kolsch? (Available from Beertech).

I would go with the Crouch Vale yeast if you're looking for a pleasent, clean blonde ale. The Hallertau hops will give it a nice delicate flavour. If you're really wanting to reproduce a Kolsch style beer and would be upset if it wasn't very similar to what you've tried in Germany, then yes, definately go for the liquid yeast. I'm going to brew a Kolsch soon and i'm definately going to hunt out the proper liquid yeast - the price means very little to me because I tend to stretch out a single liquid yeast over multiple (sometimes a dozen) batches. I think US-05 has a completely different flavour, personally.

[Matt]

I had just decided overnight that if I was going to do a kolsch i might as well do it properly - wlp029 and everything.

Gurgeh, this is exactly what I concluded prior to doing mine. I wondered about using Maris Otter, dry yeast etc, but decided its better not to compromise (IMHO). I would send you some of the yeast from the primary cake but I should think the risk of infection means its best just to spend a fiver on a new vial?

Matt

[Gurgeh]

Oh sod it.

I'm going the whole hog!

most expensive brew ever, but yeah - i'll be cropping the yeast for use again later.

[Gurgeh]

right, so if it arrives friday do you think I can step up the yeast enough to get a brew on on saturday???

[mysterio]

To be on the safe side I would leave it until Sunday. If you must do it on Saturday try and keep the starter warm. I wouldn't risk it personally, I've had a beer fail because I only left the starter for 24 hours... of course it probably depends on the strain of yeast and how fresh it is. We'll see what Matt says..

[oblivious]

Also if you intent to ferment this cold you will need more yeast that and ale of the same volume and gravity

[steve_flack]

Also if you intent to ferment this cold you will need more yeast that and ale of the same volume and gravity

From what I've read the Fruh yeast (WLP029) isn't too keen on being too cold - not less than 16C anyway. Check out the reviews for the yeast on the Whitelabs site

[Matt]

To be on the safe side I would leave it until Sunday. If you must do it on Saturday try and keep the starter warm. I wouldn't risk it personally, I've had a beer fail because I only left the starter for 24 hours... of course it probably depends on the strain of yeast and how fresh it is. We'll see what Matt says..

My starter took off quickly and looked healthy after 24 hours fermenting quite warm and with regular agitation (i.e a shake whenever I remembered), although I did do mine for 48 as I am not a seasoned liquid yeast user and I wanted to make sure. I don't recall much more build up of yeast in the bottom of the flask during the second day.

Having said that I would still wait 48 hours - not worth cocking up an expensive brew IMHO.

Matt