Vienna lager

[Laripu]

This is my first post here. One of my favorite beer styles, with few commercial examples, is Vienna lager. You may find my recipe here.

I'm interested to know whether any of you have brewed this style, and how.

Cheers

[BigEd]

I love Vienna but I would hold that Vienna malt be the primary ingredient. I use 97% Vienna and 3% CaraFoam, bitter with Sazz and finish with Spalter keeping the IBUs in the low 20s and using just a touch of late hops. Decoction mashing is part of my lager routine but you can do well with a single infusion. The White Labs Mexican Lager yeast works exceptionally well as the amber Mexican lagers are some of the last surviving beers in the Vienna style albeit dumbed down. Any southern German yeast would also be great.

BTW, welcome to the forum. This is a British site which tends to favor the UK styles which is what brought me here although there are a few members who also brew lagers.

[Laripu]

I agree that making Vienna malt the primary ingredient is an excellent to make this style of beer. I was looking for an equivalent way, and I think I found it. Your choice of hops is classic, and I would have used that too, except that I wanted to try Polish hops and they became available. Since my grandmother was a homebrewer in Poland over 70 years ago, I imagined a kind of ephemeral intergenerational connection by using Polish hops. Anyway, everyon esays Lublin is Saaz-like.

About the yeast: I have been using liquid yeast for many years until a coupe of them failed (One WL and one WY). I then switched to Nottingham, Windsor and SafLager with exccellent results for the past 2 years. I will soon be returning to Wyeast, though, for Alt beers and some special lagers.

It is clearly a British site, and that's interesting to me too. I like old ales, and have made a number of old ales and strong stouts. In a burst of non-conformity, I've even made an old ale with cherries, called "Even More Subite". (Yes the pun is intended. )

Being a lager-brewer in an ale-area suits me to a T. I was born a Canadian Jew, married a German Catholic and immigrated to the US, so I guess I'm just contrary by nature.

[BigEd]

I agree that making Vienna malt the primary ingredient is an excellent to make this style of beer. I was looking for an equivalent way, and I think I found it. Your choice of hops is classic, and I would have used that too, except that I wanted to try Polish hops and they became available. Since my grandmother was a homebrewer in Poland over 70 years ago, I imagined a kind of ephemeral intergenerational connection by using Polish hops. Anyway, everyon esays Lublin is Saaz-like.

Yes, if you are trying to make do or can't get Vienna malt a mix of Pilsner and Munich makes a very acceptable substitute. However, if you have not used Vienna malt for this beer by all means give it a try sometime. It makes an absolutely wonderful brew. Lublin is a very similar hop to Saaz, maybe even the same thing just grown in Poland so it is a good choice.

About the yeast: I have been using liquid yeast for many years until a coupe of them failed (One WL and one WY). I then switched to Nottingham, Windsor and SafLager with exccellent results for the past 2 years. I will soon be returning to Wyeast, though, for Alt beers and some special lagers.

This is not an ingredient to skimp on IMO. I've seen mixed reviews on the dry lager yeasts and would strongly suggest one of the liquid strains here. Lagers and lager yeasts are a different breed of cat so go the extra mile here and make a large starter with some fresh yeast. I've been using both Wyeast and White Labs yeasts for well over 15 years and haven't had one fail yet.

It is clearly a British site, and that's interesting to me too. I like old ales, and have made a number of old ales and strong stouts. In a burst of non-conformity, I've even made an old ale with cherries, called "Even More Subite". (Yes the pun is intended. )

If you enjoy the UK styles take some time and browse the recipe section here. There is lots of good info here.

I was born a Canadian Jew, married a German Catholic and immigrated to the US, so I guess I'm just contrary by nature.

Sounds like a premise for a new TV sit-com.

Cheers!

[Laripu]

Yes, if you are trying to make do or can't get Vienna malt a mix of Pilsner and Munich makes a very acceptable substitute. However, if you have not used Vienna malt for this beer by all means give it a try sometime. It makes an absolutely wonderful brew.

I will try it, and I'm sure I'll love it. I also think that there's more than one way to skin a cat. I don't however agree with George and Laurie Fix, who's book suggests pilsener and crystal malts. That horrified me.

The hallmark of Vienna lager, for me, is elegance. The two things I consider indispensible for achieving that are decoction mashing (at least 2 decoctions - I no longer have the stamina for 3, though) and long lagering as cold as you can manage.

This is not an ingredient to skimp on IMO. I've seen mixed reviews on the dry lager yeasts and would strongly suggest one of the liquid strains here. Lagers and lager yeasts are a different breed of cat so go the extra mile here and make a large starter with some fresh yeast. I've been using both Wyeast and White Labs yeasts for well over 15 years and haven't had one fail yet.

Yes, but it's not a matter of skimping. I started brewing in 1990, and like any beginner used the packets that came with cans of LME. After 2 years I had completely switched to DME and liquid yeast. After another year it was mostly all-grain. Soon after I was doing decoction mashing. I never gave dry yeast another thought.

Eventually I moved from Montreal to Tampa, and used the local homebrew shop. Unfortnately it went bad, stopped restocking items and slowly went out of business. That's when I switched to mail-ordering, and got bad yeast by mail. I guess the trucks (or should I say "lorries") in Tampa get very hot, and I suppose that must have killed the yeast. Dry yeast is more resilient, and the newer dry yeasts are much better than they once were. Not perfect, but much better. I rehydrate and make a starter > 1-liter. I find that Nottingham, Windsor and SafLager, treated properly, are almost as good as the liquid yeasts.

Sounds like a premise for a new TV sit-com.

Indeed it does. For authenticity, it should be filmed with multilingual puns in English, Canadian French, German and Yiddish. My part will be played by Jason Alexander, and my wife will be played by Gwynneth Paltrow. (I resemble him somewhat. My wife looks nothing like Gwynneth, but if she wants a different cast she can direct her own sitcom! )

[BigEd]

I don't however agree with George and Laurie Fix, who's book suggests pilsener and crystal malts. That horrified me.

You have to look at that info within the time frame in which it was written. The book was probably first published 15+ years ago and the recipes were done with what ingredients were then readily available. Unfortunately there are still a great many homebrew publications in common use with outdated recipes. Certainly many of those books, including the Fixxes', are still very good as long as you update as necessary.

[mysterio]

Welcome to the site Laripu. I love Vienna lager too, I brewed the recipe from Brewing Classic Styles recently here.

It made a great beer after a few weeks lagering. Since it's a style that doesn't really exist in Vienna anymore (infact you probably make more of them in the US), I reckon you could use whatever malts you like as long as you use a good dose of Vienna or Munich malt. If I was to try the above recipe again I would drop the mash temp and maybe try a decoction. I tried my first decoction on a recent weizen and I liked the results. I'd probably drop the late hops too.

I love the liquid lager yeasts, I always get excellent results from them. The two lager yeasts i've tried are the White Labs German lager and the České Budějovice. I prefer the flavour of the Czech one.

at least 2 decoctions

Any reason for the two decoctions? Greg Noonan mentions in his book that a single decoction can achieve the same melanoidin development as long as you boil it for longer... which 3 temperature steps are you going through?

One thing i'm thinking about for my next lager is going through a longer rest at 60C (40 minutes) then a shorter one at 70C (20 minutes) to try and get a dry a beer as possible. I made a German pilsener recently, mashed at 64C, and it had too much body.

[Aleman]

One thing i'm thinking about for my next lager is going through a longer rest at 60C (40 minutes) then a shorter one at 70C

Watch out for the protein degradation which will affect head retention. I know the theory is that 60C is outside the range of proteolytic enzymes . . .the reality is that a significant amount of activity will and does occur. One tipe might be to try mashing in cooler than the predicted Strike heat and then gently raise the temp up to 64C and keep it there. . . . Drop the amounts / any additional malts (No crystal / carapils / Munich) . . . and mash longer . . . then do a thick decoct to increase melanoidin production

[mysterio]

I'll keep that in mind... cheers Aleman. I'll probably try it once to see how I fare because it's in all the books (Fix Narziss Noonan Palmer etc). I asked brupaks for the specs of their pils malt but they had no idea... is it definately Weyermann? I think i've found a source for Weyermann from a local brewpub for much cheper than the LHBS (£25 compared to double that) so I think some experimentation is in order. Certainly my pilsner with 100% pils malt mashed @ 64C was nowhere near as dry as the ones you get in Germany.

[BigEd]

My two cents on the decoction schedule: Keep the beta rest on the short side. I use deocotion mashing for all my lagers with a schedule of roughly 20 minutes @ 56, 60 minutes @ 66 and 15 minutes @ 76.

Mysterio, I'm surprised to hear that your Pils mashed at 64 had too much body. Did you also do a preliminary rest at a lower temp?

[mysterio]

Nah, straight in at 64, Ed.

[BigEd]

Nah, straight in at 64, Ed.

Hmm, I don't know if I would go much below that for the main rest if you want a drier beer. I would try a couple of things first. Extend the time on the main mash and/or throw in a rest at a lower temp either by infusion or decoction. I like something in the range of 55 deg. Some of the big American brewers use a ramped infusion starting pretty low like around 45 deg and slowly moving up to sugar rest temp. This squeezes out just about everything the malt can yield and certainly yields a beer with a dry finish. I'm not advocating that you make Budweiser but applying some of their technique might get you where you want to be.

[Laripu]

Welcome to the site Laripu.

Thanks!

Your recipe is something I might have brewed myself. I like it. My taste in Vienna would lean to fewer BUs, but that's just a quibble. Your idea of dropping the mash temp and decocting is also in line with how I like to brew. (Wait... Are you sure you're not me? How do you know you're not me? My signature line below indicates I might be you. )

Any reason for the two decoctions?

Yes. My boil times are rather short: just long enough for the 30 minute rests, then I add the decocted malt to raise the temperature. Converting to C, my rests were at 50°, 63°, 68° and mashout at 77°. The first two were only 30 minutes each. I'd even have done one more decoction, but I got tired.

I made a German pilsener recently, mashed at 64C, and it had too much body.

A lower saccharification temp will give you a drier beer, but if you want less body, I think you need a protein rest at 50°. Be careful with that though. Too much of that and you get no body and no head. Greg Noonan made some sort of guillotine joke about that in his book, but I don't recall it at the moment.

One other thing: compared to many Americans, I prefer a beer with less carbonation, and you can see that in the recipe. I think, though, that you Brits prefer even less than I do. I think the British carbonation level is perfect for British style ales. (That's a bit of a tautology, but I meant it as a compliment.)

Lower carbonation is also better for you, resulting in less acid indigestion if you're prone to it (and I am).

[Laripu]

Mysterio, one other thing: I love your blog. I want some of your pizza & Vienna lager. Since I can't just get up on my hind legs and fly to Glasgow, I'll probably make some myself this weekend. (It's Independence Day here in 2 days, when we celebrate not having to pay taxes to King George by barbecuing dead animal tissue and drinking beer. )

[mysterio]

Sounds not unlike our Robert Burns day or St Andrews day which we celebrate by eating sheep's stomach stuffed with offal

I know what you mean with the BUs, but what does it really mean when you see a recipe printed online. We're all using different formulae, different hops stored in different ways and different equipment. With the amount of BUs I estimate in my recipe it gives me a beer balanced towards the sweet side.

Mysterio, one other thing: I love your blog.

Cheers!

think, though, that you Brits prefer even less than I do. I think the British carbonation level is perfect for British style ales.

British real ale just tastes right with a lower carbonation served at cellar temperatures. IMO, lower carbonation tends to preserve hop character and suits the lighter gravity of your average British ale which is generally served pretty fresh. It's the proper storing and serving of these beers that marks the good ones from the mediocre ones. It also tends to have enough hop bitterness to keep the flavour in balance without the need for intense carbonation. I think with lager, the carbonation partially serves to balance the sweetness of the normally lower hopped lagers. I don't think it's that Brits intrinsically enjoy lower carbonated beer. The likes of a Belgian tripel would just taste odd without much carbonation...