Samuel Adans / Vienna Lager Recipe for Critique

[bosium]

Hi all,

I absolutely love Samuel Adams Boston Lager. For those who have not had it before, is a wonderful, malty, rich beer
with incredible depth flavour and balance, and a beautiful colour. It is one of my all-time favourite beers.

So, I am trying to create something similar, and I would appreciate any criticism of my recipe.
I have created essentially a Vienna Lager, but have added a small amount of crystal (I believe crystal 40 is in the
SA recipe), and some melanoidin to emulate the decoction mash that is used by the commercial brewery.

I'm not 100% sure on how much bitterness to add, but I know that SA is a very malty and sweet beer yet still is quite
bitter, so I'd expect I would need quite a bit of bitterness to balance this. I'm not sure if 34 is too much, but I
prefer to err on the side of bitter rather than sweet. I'll be using soft water and FWH'ing, as well as using some of
the best hops you can buy, so this should still be a fairly gentle yet firm bitterness (I hope).

I also know that SA uses Hallertau Mittelfruh and Tettnanger, and the beer has a much more pronounced hop aroma and
flavour than a traditional Vienna lager. I am not sure how best to split the additions, so my starting point is simply
to add equal portions of Hallertau and Tett for each addition. Again, any advice / suggestions would be very welcome.

OG: 1.052
FG: 1.016
ABV: 4.8%
AA: 70%
IBU: 34

Vienna Malt 40%
Munich Malt 25%
Pils Malt (Ger) 25%
CaraMunich 40 5%
Melanoidin Malt 3%
Flaked Barley 2%

Hops: Hallertauer Mittelfruh 4.3% AA
Tettnang Tettnanger 3.8% AA

Additions:
90min FWH 18 IBU
30min 9 IBU
15min 5 IBU
5min 2 IBU

I will use the Wyeast 2001 Urquell strain, mainly as I have it and I plan to brew a bohemian pilsner next, so I can
re-pitch on this one's cake once done. I will grow an enormous starter first though, and pitch the slurry. I plan to
pitch cold and ferment at 10.C, with a diacetyl rest near to the end of fermentation.
I will use a fast ferment test to determine what my limit of attenuation is with the wort I produce.

I will be lagering this for 4-6 weeks, and then bottling it with krausen beer from the leftover original wort, fermented
with a flocculant ale yeast for carbonation, probably Notty.

That's about it. Any comments from those more experienced in lagers (or anyone really) would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Barley Water]

First the disclaimer: I have not yet tried to make this beer although I have made Vienna Lagers and the last one I made came out pretty well. It was essentially 100% Vienna malt (and of course I decocted it, just couldn't help myself). The beer had a much more "rounded" flavor while in my opinion SA is pretty hoppy in terms of bitterness, flavor and aroma.

I have seen several formulations for clones of SA and most of them are using pils malt as a base with crystal (which is where the color is coming from), a pretty simple formulation. As you correctly point out, they then use German noble hops to bitter and add hop flavor. I think if I were making this beer, I would dry hop it however. One of the nice things about the commercial product is that it has a really nice hop aroma and I have had pretty good luck dry hopping. I really don't think of SA as a Vienna mostly because it is so hoppy. Anyhow, the beer you have planned should come out well, let us know how it goes.

[mysterio]

Totally agree with BW, look at most vienna lager recipes and you'll get a nice malty beer, kind of a rich amber lager with low hop character. Boston Lager however is massively hoppy for a Vienna, it's almost an American Ale with lager yeast. Dry hopping with some hallertau might be the way to go, it has a nice lupulin flavour/aroma like freshly picked hops. Your recipe will make a great traditional Vienna but Boston Lager doesn't have all those dark base malts like Munich or Vienna.

I think a good starting point for hops in this beer is 1g per L at each 15 minutes, 0 minutes, and again dry hopping, along with enough IBUs as a bittering addition to get 35 ish IBUs. I think I would be biased towards the Hallertau Mittelfruh.

[bosium]

OK,

Thanks for the replies. I agree, SA is very hoppy for a Vienna. It is very malty though, to the point that I find it hard to believe
that they get all that malt character solely from 2-row and crystal. However, their website says it's just 2-row and crystal 60, as you said, Mysterio, just like an APA. I guess their mash schedule must be what gets that extra melanoidin flavour.

Maybe if I change to Pilsener Malt (close enough to US 2-row?) and some C60, perhaps with a dash of munich and melanoidin just to help emulate the decoction.

The SA website says the beer is dry hopped with mittelfruh, apparently. Perhaps I can bitter with Tettnang, flavour with both and aroma and dry hop with Mittelfruh?

[delboy]

+1 on the dryhopping, i'll be following this thread closely i have a sams adams type lager planned in the very near future.

Personally im going to dump in quite a bit of munich (but no vienna) and enough crystal to get the colour, i don't want it too chewy.

[mysterio]

Thanks for the replies. I agree, SA is very hoppy for a Vienna. It is very malty though, to the point that I find it hard to believe
that they get all that malt character solely from 2-row and crystal. However, their website says it's just 2-row and crystal 60, as you said, Mysterio, just like an APA. I guess their mash schedule must be what gets that extra melanoidin flavour.

I might be talking crap here but I reckon a lager yeast, properly used, really emphasises malt flavour and aroma. There are also lots of references to Boston Lager being decocted.

Since you are re-pitching the yeast and you will most likely get a good lager fermentation this way, why not give the decoction a go? Otherwise using a little munich and melanoidin malt is a good way to go. Recipe might look like 90/5/3/2 % Pils/munich/crystal/melanoidin. A vigorous boil would also help. Your ideas for hop use sound good.

[bosium]

Hmm,

I've done a bit more reading, looked at quite a few clone recipes. Most interesting was this: http://hbd.org/discus/messages/20001/19 ... 1072911946. The author mentions using Tettnang as the finishing hop, and bittering with Mittelfruh.

I guess some flavour from the Mittelfruh will still come through, I've found noble hops still contribute a gentle flavour even when added right at the beginning of the boil. Do you think just sticking to the 50/50 additions all the way through will muddy the effect?

[mysterio]

From the website

Samuel Adams Boston Lager® is also dry hopped using the Hallertau Mittelfruh hops for an enhanced hop signature in the aroma and finish.

I don't think combining the hops will muddy the effect in any way, they are both very high quality hops. That dunt of Mittelfruh dry hops is where most of the hop character is coming from. That, along with a good fermentation with controlled temperatures, will get you 90% of the way there. I nearly said 'don't believe everything you read on HB boards', in reference to that HBD thread. But I think that would be a paradox.

[Barley Water]

How you chose to hop the beer would depend on the minerals in your water supply in my opinion. I really don't know what Samuel Adams is doing with the water but I would be willing to bet that they are starting with pretty soft water. That allows them to hop heavier than I would here since the bitterness they get will not be harsh. In my case, I need to be careful since I have medium hard water (and I am too cheap and lazy to screw around with RO water). What that means for me is that I get a sharper bitterness than somebody who is using soft water and so I usually back down a little on the IBU's.

I would however be tempted to bitter with one of the higher alpha acid German bittering hops (mostly to keep the vegetal matter down in the copper). I don't know if it really matters that much which hops you bitter with as long as the bitterness is not of the course variety (for example, don't go dumping Cascade in there, you will be disappointed). On the other hand, for your flavoring and finishing hops, for sure stay with the high quality German noble strains to get that nice hop flavor and aroma, just like old Sam does. By the way, the faster you can cool down your wort after the end of the boil, the more hop goodness you can trap in the beer (I really need to upgrade my equipment and build myself an imersion chiller but that is a project for another day). Anyhow, have fun and good luck.