To Convert a Lager-holic.

[Askari Joe]

Hello All,

My next brew is intended to lure my cousin's husband away from lager. There isn't anything wrong with lager, it's just that when I offer him a beer he tell me he doen't like ale. Do you think this will do it?

Gary's Fake Lager...

For a 23 litre batch:
3kg Lager Malt
1.5kg Pale Malt (Maris Otter)
500g Maize, Flaked

60 mins 10g Chinook 13.3AA
60 mins 5g Citra 13.8AA
30 mins 10g Chinook 13.3AA
15 mins 10g Citra 13.8AA
(39.1 IBU)

OG @ 1.051
FG @ 1.014
Colour - 8° EBC / 4° SRM (Yellow)
4.9% ABV

Any comments very welcome!

[Barley Water]

Well, the thing about lager drinkers is that they aren't really into the big hop bitterness/flavor/aroma that many flavorful beers display. What we do over here on this side of the pond is feed them what we call American Blonde ale. Essentially, it's a 1.050 O.G. beer with pale malt and a bit of light crystal (because you also want to keep the beer straw to light gold least they freak out at a darker brew). We then bitter the stuff to about 20-25 or so IBU's, generally with a noble type hop, maybe a little flavor addition but not much and ferment it with a clean ale yeast (God forbid there be any noticable yeast derived flavors). If you make it right, you'll probably like the beer also, its a pretty good, basic easy drinker. I actually made some beer in this style a couple of months ago with a couple of ladies in my brewclub, they wanted it for one of their sons who was turning 21 (that's the legal drinking age over here).

What you have there looks to me like an American Pale ale. Oh yeah, I would probably just love it but a neophyte lager drinker will choke on the hops. By the way, the hops you have chosen are extremely agressive tasting, good for the experienced but maybe not so much for the "craft brew virgin". Once you get the rookie drinking a fresh, approchable blonde, you then slip in a pale ale like you propose. Once they are assimilated to the pale ale, try something a little darker, maybe a brown or amber ale. Pretty soon the guy will be putting down Double IPA's and Barleywines, you just need to start slowly.

[dave-o]

Yeah as above it'll probably be too bitter for him.

I'd say do a basic pale ale grain bill with about 100g cascade put in all towards the end of the boil.

[Askari Joe]

Yeah, I did wonder about the hops. I used them for an extract IPA a little while ago and I'm just trying to use them up. I thought they were wonderful, but I'll do like you say and lighten it up a bit in terms of IBU lest I scare his taste buds. Was going to use Safale US-05. Should be ok I think.

So much to brew, so little time!!!

Thanks for your imput.

[Befuddler]

Ditch the sweetcorn, it has no place in beer!

To convert a lager drinker without actually going to the trouble of making a proper lager, I'd probably use 50/50 lager and pale malt, maybe 200g of wheat to boost the head, mash at 64-65c to keep it dry, then bitter to 20ibu and give it a modest aroma addition of saaz. US-05 is a good yeast choice, and I'd ferment it at 17c.

If he turns his nose up at that, he really must be terrified of flavour and is probably a lost cause.

[Askari Joe]

No Maize? Aw. I read it gave a corn kind of flavour that I thought might be nice. Why the aversion?

Thanks for the advice on the mash, ferment temp and hop additions though.

[Befuddler]

No Maize? Aw. I read it gave a corn kind of flavour that I thought might be nice. Why the aversion?

It's only really used because it's dirt cheap and it ferments out easily. It will leave a flavour, but not a pleasant one imo.

Unless for some reason you want to clone an insipid American lager, I'd steer well clear.

[Askari Joe]

Ha ha. Noted!

[Barley Water]

Well I respectfully disagree Mr. Befuddler. Yes, if you add corn to beer it will tend to thin it out. Of course flavor is a subjective issue but corn tends to add a sort of grainy, sweet flavor to beer. I regularly make, and currently have on tap, a CAP which is made with 20% corn grits (cereal mashed). The stuff has an O.G. of 1.055 and I hop it up pretty good plus I dry hopped it so it also has a nice Saaz aroma. The corn also allows the beer to dry out pretty well which in this particular case is a good thing. Anyway, if you sampled some I am pretty confident that you would not consider the beer "insipid". Back in the day over here, they used to make what I consider the precurssor to American pale ale and it also has alot of corn/rice adjunct (Ballantines XXX, also not whimpy tasting). The problem we got into is that we kept using the adjuncts but lowered the gravity and hopping rates getting ourselves to the point where the mass marketed beers were indeed "incipid'. Although I agree that the adjuncts are cheaper, the reason they used corn and rice back then was because 6 row malted barley is high in proteins which caused issues with the beer (and those old boys used what they had). Similar to what those guys in the Durden Park organization do, I like to brew beers occasionally which have historical significance over here so I mess with this stuff sometimes.

I have been homebrewing for many, many years and back in the day using adjuncts was taboo in this hobby (a thought which still persists with many to this day). I have found however that used properly, many adjuncts can in fact add alot to various styles. If you want to diversify a bit and make styles you don't see everyday, I strongly encourage folks to start messing around with perhaps non-traditional ingredients. Now that I'm done pontificating though, here is something fun to try which I bet you will like. Get some regular pale malt (not the high end stuff like Marris Otter) and cut it with 20% flaked corn (or do a cereal mash, it is more work but comes out just a bit better). Throw in maybe 5% medium crystal malt for an O.G. of about 1.050 or so. Hop the stuff to about 40 IBU with both late hops and perhaps some dry hops. If you use American "C" hops or similar, you'll have an American pale ale similar to those made 120 years ago or so. You'll find that the beer is a bit lighter and maybe a bit dryer than similar ales but that tends to accentuate the hop character, not a bad thing. Anyhow, once your done, you can promote the stuff as "throwback APA" and I bet not many on your side of the pond have brewed anything quite like that (and actually you don't see that much of it over here either).

[greenxpaddy]

Good luck! You'll need it.

Lager drinkers are generally a lost cause

[Befuddler]

Well I respectfully disagree Mr. Befuddler. Yes, if you add corn to beer it will tend to thin it out. Of course flavor is a subjective issue but corn tends to add a sort of grainy, sweet flavor to beer. I regularly make, and currently have on tap, a CAP which is made with 20% corn grits (cereal mashed). The stuff has an O.G. of 1.055 and I hop it up pretty good plus I dry hopped it so it also has a nice Saaz aroma. The corn also allows the beer to dry out pretty well which in this particular case is a good thing. Anyway, if you sampled some I am pretty confident that you would not consider the beer "insipid". Back in the day over here, they used to make what I consider the precurssor to American pale ale and it also has alot of corn/rice adjunct (Ballantines XXX, also not whimpy tasting). The problem we got into is that we kept using the adjuncts but lowered the gravity and hopping rates getting ourselves to the point where the mass marketed beers were indeed "incipid'. Although I agree that the adjuncts are cheaper, the reason they used corn and rice back then was because 6 row malted barley is high in proteins which caused issues with the beer (and those old boys used what they had). Similar to what those guys in the Durden Park organization do, I like to brew beers occasionally which have historical significance over here so I mess with this stuff sometimes.

I have been homebrewing for many, many years and back in the day using adjuncts was taboo in this hobby (a thought which still persists with many to this day). I have found however that used properly, many adjuncts can in fact add alot to various styles. If you want to diversify a bit and make styles you don't see everyday, I strongly encourage folks to start messing around with perhaps non-traditional ingredients. Now that I'm done pontificating though, here is something fun to try which I bet you will like. Get some regular pale malt (not the high end stuff like Marris Otter) and cut it with 20% flaked corn (or do a cereal mash, it is more work but comes out just a bit better). Throw in maybe 5% medium crystal malt for an O.G. of about 1.050 or so. Hop the stuff to about 40 IBU with both late hops and perhaps some dry hops. If you use American "C" hops or similar, you'll have an American pale ale similar to those made 120 years ago or so. You'll find that the beer is a bit lighter and maybe a bit dryer than similar ales but that tends to accentuate the hop character, not a bad thing. Anyhow, once your done, you can promote the stuff as "throwback APA" and I bet not many on your side of the pond have brewed anything quite like that (and actually you don't see that much of it over here either).

I knew that comment would rile someone.

I've got no problem with unusual adjuncts, it can work really well - but personally, corn is a flavour I really don't like in beer. There are a million different things I would use to thin out a beer or add another layer of flavour before I reached for that stuff. I can understand why it's used in some American styles, especially the historical ones, but I personally don't like the note it brings, and I reckon our British malts are good enough that things like corn and rice only serve to spoil the flavour.

[floydmeddler]

I'd brew something with lager malt and Sazz hops. Maybe 5%, 25IBU and no more than 20g as late hops. Nothing spectacular for you but will be a nice way in for your mate. After than I'd hit him with an IPA then start talking him into building his own brewery. It can be done!

[Askari Joe]

Great comments fellas. I think the general concensus is to lighten up on the hops. I'll be rocking that Throwback APA at some point though. I like a beer with a back story.

Also, Barley Water, you're right about experimenting. How can things progress and news styles developed if occasionally we don't do something different?

Have a great weekend everyone.

[Rookie]

Convert a lagerite? I say pox on the pillock
Brew what you like and if he doesn't want any that leaves more for you.

[Askari Joe]

May not a pox, but you know what, after all this deliberation I think I agree. It's my 2nd AG so I'm probably going to do something I like. Will stick with the APA plan and do him a lager-type thing when I'm a bit more experienced.

Cheers all.