Belgian Quadrupel

[dean_wales]

So I thought that I would have a bash at one of these with some left over belgian ingredients and a yeast cake I will have from a batch of Leffe next month.

I havent got the foggiest about the tricks of making such a high gravity beer so could someone who has knowledge or experience of making these 10%-12% beers have a look?

I havent included any spices as I am relying on the yeast but fancy adding something to give a subtle effect and talking point at Christmas. I dont want a mulled beer though so may just stay as is.

I havent included any wheat malt - should I do so? I want good head retention in the goblet for this slow armchair slurper. I might have some Dingemans wheat malt kicking about to use.

Sugar makes up about 15% of the grain bill (70% base malt and 30% speciality malts). Would you reccomend going higher or lower than that?

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Recipe Specifications:
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Batch Size (fermenter): 25.00 l

Estimated OG: 1.101 SG
Estimated FG: 1.010 SG

Estimated ABV: 12.2%

Estimated Color: 25.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 27.9 IBUs

Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %

Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
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7.00 kg Dingemans Pilsner Malt (2.7 EBC)
1.00 kg Dingemans Caravienne Malt (43.3 EBC)
0.65 kg Dingemans Aromatic Malt (51.2 EBC)

1.00 kg Household Sugar (2.0 EBC)
0.50 kg Dark Brown Sugar (98.5 EBC)
70.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 90.0 mi Hop
30.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 15.0 mi Hop
1.00 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins)

1.00 Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeastcake

Total Grain Weight: 10.15 kg

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Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
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Mash: Add 23.06 l of water at 73.6 C to mash at 66.7 C for 60 min
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Sparge: Fly sparge with 13.03 l water at 75C
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I normally get quite high efficiencies so have reduced to 75% here, is that correct?

I will ferment on the cooler end of WLP530's range to stop things getting to crazy and ramp it up at the end.

Am guessing a minimum of six to nine months before tasting a bottle?

Any input appreciated. Im not trying to copy a particular beer here just to make a very strong (ABV%) beer that is fairly easy going and enjoyable to drink.

Thanks,

Dean.

[greenxpaddy]

I would use a little wheat malt so you get that nice frothy head

Your main focus needs to be not getting a stuck ferment. This means very good aeration of the wort & a seriously generous pitching of yeast. Being a quadruple you will need 3 possibly 4 times the yeast dose compared to that used for your Leffe. You should also note that re-using yeast from a 6% abv finished brew (I'm guessing that was your finished level as it is the normal Leffe strength) is not a good idea at all. The yeast are stressed from that ferment. The best way to do a triple is to brew a 4.0% abv single first and use the yeast cake from that one.

Hope that helps.

[dean_wales]

Hi greenpaddy,

I know that the yeast pitchinga nd fermentation is going to be the tricky bit. Beersmith thinks I need 90 vials of WLP530 or 30 if I make a seven litre starter!!!

To be honest the only Belgian yeats I have available is the vial of WLP530 which I have brought for the Leffe. Will the yeast really be in that bad a shape after that fermentation? Its about 6% without the priming sugar. Would it help if I dropped the ABV slightly to say 5.5% etc? What happens to the yeast that makes it such a bad idea? Is it that there wont be enough live yeast or is it that the yeast that is in the cake wont ferment correctly?

How much wheat malt shoudl I add? About 250g or so?

It seems odd but this brew is a user upper and so I can throw much money at it!

Thanks,

Dean.

[dean_wales]

Would it make a (big enough to justify the faff) difference if I brewed and fermented the Leffe without the sugar (1.048 / 4.7%) then racked to secondary with the sanitised sugar and harvest the cake from the primary?

That would mean the yeast cake had only brewed a lower gravity beer and I dont need to water down my Leffe?

Thanks,

Dean.

[dave-o]

...For when a tripel just isn't quite strong enough......

Perhaps the monk on your label should have wonky eyes, and maybe a bit of sick running down his beard.

[smdjoachim]

Reduce mash efficiency to 60%. Unless you have a really big boiler and several hours to spare boiling it down.
And get some 33cl bottles.You don't want to drink a pint of 10% beer.
Up the sugar to 20% as you wound never get the gravity down to something approaching drinkable.
The key with a strong Belgium is that it doesn't taste like a strong beer.

[zgoda]

Up the sugar to 20% as you wound never get the gravity down to something approaching drinkable.
The key with a strong Belgium is that it doesn't taste like a strong beer.

Plus mash low and reduce specialty grains. You want this monster to finish dry, not sweet. Originally such beers are made of only pilsner malt and candi syrup, you could substitute it with dark inverted, but it wouldn't be the same. You can always make candi of regular table sugar and yeast nutrient.

Good luck and have enough patience.

[dean_wales]

I thought I had kept the speciality grains fairly low? I could halve the Caravienna I suppose to 500g.

Have altered mash schedule to mash low for a fermentable wort.

Im confused on the reduced efficiency/need to boil down points. Why is this? If I followed the reciepe and boiled it for three hours I would be way below the 5 Gallon batch size? Why will my efficiency be so low?? Do you sparge a beer like this less or something?

Also why does Beersmith reckon the FG will be so much lower than you guys say it will be?

I thought I had half an idea what I was doing, obviously not!

Dean.

[far9410]

Sorry for being dim, am i to assume then that a blonde belgian at 4% is a start then dubbel, trippel, quad etc is just a yeast step up to gain the higher gravities( when I say "just" humble apologies to the trappists et al)?

[piet_v]

Add your 20 % sugar during fermentation, after a day or 3/4, just when fermentation starts to slow down.

[greenxpaddy]

Would it make a (big enough to justify the faff) difference if I brewed and fermented the Leffe without the sugar (1.048 / 4.7%) then racked to secondary with the sanitised sugar and harvest the cake from the primary?

That would mean the yeast cake had only brewed a lower gravity beer and I dont need to water down my Leffe?

Thanks,

Dean.

If you haven't yet brewed your Leffe I would definitely do that.

[Spud395]

Yeast after a 6% beer will be fine to re-use.

When Rochefort start a yeast they will brew their 6 (7.8%)with it, brew the 8 (9.2%) and finally the 10(11.3%)
I know the wlp 530 is the westmalle yeast not Rochefort, but I see brewing a smaller beer like a leffe as a perfect stsrter for a monster like you have planned. I've a similar plan.

I do think your final gravity is optimistic, for a start I would be mashing much lower than you plan, 62C would be a good start I reckon, it will make for a much more fermentable wort.
I would also avoid caramel malts to avoid unfermentable sugars.
From what I've read the big belgians are all pale/pilsner with sugar or caramelised sugar.

[greenxpaddy]

If you have a commercial set up that might be ok, but we don't. For such a strong beer you need to make a very healthy starter. You won't achieve that by brewing a 6% beer as a starter. 4% or 1.040 gravity starter is recoginised as the best way to produce the healthiest yeast in the highest quantities.

The logic is simple but if you want to cut corners that is of course up to you.

I would very much doubt that Rochefort use the yeast in the way you described. I would expect if they do reuse the yeast they must have an intermediary step which revitalises the yeast. There may be something in the natural selection process which encourages yeast cell selection that are good at handling high abv but I haven't seen any detailed info on how they achieve that selection and healthy yeast. All the professional literature I have ever read says do not re-use yeast that has been used to ferment a high gravity beer.

[zgoda]

Life verifies these statements. I once gave Rochefort yeast slurry to my friend. It already worked for me on pale 5% and then on 7.5% dubbel. Then he made another 7% dubbel and 9.5% tripel, and finally 10.5% dark strong, with yeast being over 6 months old. And that's not all, he still has this yeast and just recently he brewed 7.5% grand cru with them. They're now over 8 months old, he only washes the slurry with sterilized water, no acid wash or clo2.

I'd say, Belgian abbey yeast are stronger than many people thinks.

[Spud395]

If you have a commercial set up that might be ok, but we don't. For such a strong beer you need to make a very healthy starter. You won't achieve that by brewing a 6% beer as a starter. 4% or 1.040 gravity starter is recoginised as the best way to produce the healthiest yeast in the highest quantities.

The logic is simple but if you want to cut corners that is of course up to you.

I would very much doubt that Rochefort use the yeast in the way you described. I would expect if they do reuse the yeast they must have an intermediary step which revitalises the yeast. There may be something in the natural selection process which encourages yeast cell selection that are good at handling high abv but I haven't seen any detailed info on how they achieve that selection and healthy yeast. All the professional literature I have ever read says do not re-use yeast that has been used to ferment a high gravity beer.

You need to get a copy of Brew like a Monk.
I dont claim any great insight into the workings of the Rochefort brewery, it's all there in black and white.

Brewing a beer of 6% or so with a proper size starter of healthy yeast is not corner cutting, you have made your 1.040 starter you have your healthy yeast.
Any ale yeast is well able for that strength and will not be adversly effected in any way.
Belgian strains are more suited to high abv beers than most, what you originally proposed is the perfect way to proceed.

Yeast that has been used to produce high abv beers should not be used again, this is why the good monks of Rochefort dont re-use the yeast from Rochefort 10!