American IPA advice

[orlando]

Not brewed one before and am struggling to find the right hops for it but have put together a recipe loosely based around advice in Ray Daniels Designing Great Beers. Thinking about the hop profile is a little bittering at the start but back end emphasis for flavour and aroma and a shorter boil to avoid "cabbagey" flavours.

Only have SO4 as well but am expecting the hops to predominate so not too worried about that. I had a Punk IPA last night and was smitten, fabulous aroma, terrific head stability and lacing with a really beautifully balanced hop profile that didn't overpower the malt completely. Would love to brew that but haven't the hops so have gone for this:

25l
IBU: 43.5
Colour: 18.4
O.G.: 1.056
ABV: 5.7%

Mash 65.6c 60 minutes

6.000 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) 86.3 %
0.300 g Crystal Malt (140.0 EBC) 4.3 %
0.300 g Torrified Wheat (3.0 EBC) 4.3 %
0.250 g Biscuit Malt (50.0 EBC) 3.6 %
0.100 g Corn, Flaked (2.6 EBC) 1.4 %
10.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.19 %] - Boil 60.0 min 4.7 IBUs
40.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min 15.6 IBUs
40.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.19 %] - Boil 30.0 min 14.4 IBUs
0.50 tsp Protafloc (Boil 15.0 mins)
25.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min 4.6 IBUs
25.00 g Styrian Goldings [5.19 %] - Boil 10.0 min 4.2 IBUs
30.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Aroma Steep 0.0 min 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml]
25.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days

[seymour]

Looks pretty good. I predict the Maris Otter, Torrified Wheat, Styrian Goldings (a Fuggles, really), and S-04 (Whitbread-B yeast strain) will produce some recognizable English characteristics, in a good way. The corn and Cascades will give you the lighter-body, adjuncty, Grapefruit-bomb aspects key to the American IPA profile.

To be honest, I'm always a little surprised when you inventors of IPA prefer our counterfeits

[orlando]

To be honest, I'm always a little surprised when you inventors of IPA prefer our counterfeits

Who said anything about prefer A change is as good as a rest. Thanks for your input though, I'm now quietly confident.

[weiht]

Styrian Goldings (a Fuggles, really)

Erm Not really anything like a fuggles, otherwise cascade would also be half fuggles really.

[Matt12398]

Styrian Golding

Slovenian variant of Fuggles, but similar to East Kent Goldings. Used in English ales and Belgian strong ales amongst others. From eastern Europe. Substitutes: East Kent Goldings.

I love Cascade. Can't go wrong with those.

Seymour, I'm really falling in love with the American IPAs. Maybe it's a grass is greener thing. There's something special about American hops.

[seymour]

Styrian Goldings (a Fuggles, really)

Erm Not really anything like a fuggles, otherwise cascade would also be half fuggles really.

From The Breeding and Parentage of Hop Varieties By Ing. Gerard W. Ch. Lemmens

Fuggle was so extensively grown throughout the U.K. that by 1949 it reached 78% of the total English crop. In the 20th Century, it was grown in the U.S., Tasmania, Canada, Belgium, Austria and Yugoslavia (now Slovenian Republic). I mention Yugoslavia because it is not called Fuggle there but Styrian Golding. The reason for this mishap in names is as follows: In the 1930s, the Yugoslavian hop industry went down with a Verticillium Wilt strain that affected their aroma hops which were of German origin. They then looked to the U.K. for new plant material and thought that they had chosen an English Golding, hence called it Styrian (originally Steirer, after a hop growing area on the Austrian/Yugoslavia border) Golding.

That's what I was referring to: Styrian Goldings is actually a Fuggles, not just bred from Fuggles, and genetically different from any true Goldings cultivar. Any differences in aroma/flavor profile are 100% attributable to growing conditions.

It's true the Cascade was bred with a Fuggles parent (and a Russian Serebrianka on American growing conditions), but its best-known rose-flower and grapefruit-bomb aspects are not present in Fuggles. I take your point, but I think we can all agree that Styrian Goldings resemble Fuggles more than Cascades do, right?

...There's something special about American hops.

Oh, I agree. I grow them, hunt for natives, cross-breed them, and brew with them. I'm just surprised at English interest in American IPAs because of how tired and samey the "experimentation" has become. Of course that often puts me in a minority opinion.

I still often prefer a nice, flowery/citrusy/earthy, breadier, maltier, well-balanced bittersweet table-strength English IPA. As you say, the grass is always greener on the other side of the pond

[weiht]

in theory its the same, but anyone who used them both would know they are very different. UK Fuggle is earthy and slightly herbal, while SG has that signature lemony perfume going on, US fuggle is mildest of all but has a slight fruitiness. BTW tettnager is said to be fuggle grown in germany.

IMO, if it can be used interchangeably then why do breweries bitter with fuggle but finish with lots of sg? Wont it be better economically and logistically to use just 1 hop its the same? Which is why I pointed it out, cuz if someone wants that signature SG lemony character and substituted it with fuggles or willamette as highly recommended, then they are just gonna get disappointed and crossed.

Like someone mention in the Hop forum, goldings grown in east kent is different from other region even though its still in the UK.

BTW, fuggle and styrians are my favourite 2 hops and I've tried almost all of them (UK US fuggles, Styrian goldings, Styrian Bobek and Styrian Celiea)

[seymour]

Weiht, I agree with you 100%. I wasn't trying to say Styrian Goldings are interchangeable with any-and-all Fuggles. I was trying to say Styrian Goldings are not interchangeable with other Goldings. Many brewers, when they cannot source Styrian Goldings, think "oh well, I'll just use any ol' Goldings", which aren't genetically the same at all, thus forfeiting the unique characteristics you describe. I agree with your bottom line: if you want Styrian Goldings bitterness/flavor/aroma profile, then accept no substitute, right?

But to put things back in context, the original question was about critiquing an American IPA recipe. So whether we're talking about Fuggles or Goldings or something in-between, this recipe is going to have some hops character which is relatively more English than American (which I consider a good thing in IPA.)

[keith1664]

If it were my brew I'd drop the 30 minute hops, Just a bittering hop(I usually use Magnum) and then going for it at 15,10,5 and 0 minutes.
I'm not sure where the shorter boil helps with the "cabbage" flavours either, isn't that DMS which is driven off over a longer boil?
Finally I've never been happy with the results when I've used S04 in a Pale, I'd certainly recommend US-05, or my current favourite Wyeast 1272 / Whitelabs 051.

But good luck with whatever you choose, I've tasted your beers at the CBA meets and you certainly seem to know what you're doing!

[beernsurfing]

I don't think your flaked corn addition will do anything. At 1.4% any lightening of the body won't be noticeable, and flavour wise, with all those hops you definately wont get any flavours from it. Not sure about the "cabbagey" flavours thing you mention. Grain and hops look good, let us know how it turns out

[Barley Water]

Just a couple of comments about American IPA's in general, take all this for what it's worth. First of all, Mr. Daniel's book is starting to get dated although I use it to get ideas for formulations. Back in the day, an IPA with an O.G. of 1.055 or so was in the ballpark, now I would say that something a little north of 1.060 to maybe 1.070 O.G. is the norm. Most APA's are in the 1.055 neighborhood (which by the way I think is a shame but that is a rant for another time). I would also say that generally, the IBU/O.G. ratio is pretty close to 1.00 so most of the beers are around 65-70 IBU's. Also, hop bursting is all the rage and the really good examples have extremely high hop flavor and absolutely reek of "C" hops (much more so than when Daniel's book was written). Finally since most AIPA's use American ingredients, the malt flavors are not so pronounced since American 2 row has nowhere near the flavor of Marris Otter. I think you can use adjuncts to get the beer to dry out, be advised however that alot of corn will at some point start affecting the flavor and can be mistaken for DMS in the beer (which you don't want in this style). I personally prefer to use a high alpha bittering hop just to keep the volume of vegital material in the copper to a managable level and I like to use hops with low cohumolone levels but that is a personal preference issue.

[keith1664]

I'm just surprised at English interest in American IPAs because of how tired and samey the "experimentation" has become. Of course that often puts me in a minority opinion.

I think that the American IPA trend maybe took a little while to find it's way over here, it's certainly a style I've only been aware of for the last 2 years, so it's still quite new to us. Also as well as all your "C" hops and the "A" one (some of which aren't that easy to get hold of over here) plus the fact that we now have some quite interesting hops coming in from New Zealand and Australia I think there's still a fair bit of mileage left in the highly hopped pale ale.
And even if we do get bored of that style I'm sure that with the ever expanding range of ingredients available to us and the amount of information now easily at hand we'll come up with some new combination!
It's certainly an interesting time to be brewing.

[weiht]

Weiht, I agree with you 100%. I wasn't trying to say Styrian Goldings are interchangeable with any-and-all Fuggles. I was trying to say Styrian Goldings are not interchangeable with other Goldings. Many brewers, when they cannot source Styrian Goldings, think "oh well, I'll just use any ol' Goldings", which aren't genetically the same at all, thus forfeiting the unique characteristics you describe. I agree with your bottom line: if you want Styrian Goldings bitterness/flavor/aroma profile, then accept no substitute, right?

But to put things back in context, the original question was about critiquing an American IPA recipe. So whether we're talking about Fuggles or Goldings or something in-between, this recipe is going to have some hops character which is relatively more English than American (which I consider a good thing in IPA.)

Yeah, its definitely not a golding. Yup I agree with u that its gonna be more like a English Ipa with an american twist rather than an AIPA. Dry hopping seems a little low for an AIPA.

Btw, I used wlp007 in a recent AIPA and its got a little diacetyl (I'm very sensitive to it tho), but otherwise its very nice in balancing the malt n hops, and if u mash high 68c or so then it will allow some residual sweetness through. Seymour, do u really find it similar to SO4?

[orlando]

If it were my brew I'd drop the 30 minute hops, Just a bittering hop(I usually use Magnum) and then going for it at 15,10,5 and 0 minutes.
I'm not sure where the shorter boil helps with the "cabbage" flavours either, isn't that DMS which is driven off over a longer boil?
Finally I've never been happy with the results when I've used S04 in a Pale, I'd certainly recommend US-05, or my current favourite Wyeast 1272 / Whitelabs 051.

But good luck with whatever you choose, I've tasted your beers at the CBA meets and you certainly seem to know what you're doing!

After reading the advice so far I agree about the 30 minutes so will move the additions for more of a "hop burst". I cook a lot and don't think boiling a lot of vegetable matter for 90 minutes is a good thing so that's why your idea of pushing the additions back appeals. I use both elements for the full boil and make sure that I never cover the brew so have not suffered from DMS since adopting that practice. If I'm honest I prefer hop aroma to bitterness but want to do something different so have upped the bittering hops to Target, as that is the highest Alpha hop I have. The yeast choice is forced upon me as it's all I have, I will ferment a little lower to avoid too much estery notes.

As for your kind comments about my beers, you might not say that if you tasted the ones I don't bring

[legion]

Hi,

I am also looking to BIAB brew my first American IPA. Played around with brewmate and come up with the following:

Legion Brewery AIPA (Imperial IPA)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.065 (°P): 15.9
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol (ABV): 6.60 %
Colour (SRM): 8.0 (EBC): 15.8
Bitterness (IBU): 67.7 (Average)
Batch Size 22Litres - Total Grain 6.4KG

85% Pale Malt
6% Dextrose
5% Torrified Wheat
4% Crystal 80

25g 1.1 g/L Columbus (16.5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil)
25g 1.1 g/L Cascade (6.8% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
25g 1.1 g/L Citra (14.5% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
25g 1.1 g/L Willamette (6.3% Alpha) @ 15 Minutes (Boil)
25g 1.1 g/L Cascade (6.8% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
25g 1.1 g/L Citra (14.5% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
25g 1.1 g/L Willamette (6.3% Alpha) @ 0 Minutes (Aroma)
25g 1.1 g/L Cascade (6.8% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)
25g 1.1 g/L Citra (14.5% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)
25g 1.1 g/L Willamette (6.3% Alpha) @ 0 Days (Dry Hop)

Total Hops 250g


Single step Infusion at 65°C for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

Fermented at 18°C with US-05