Big old ale ideas?

[Ben711200]

Hi all,

I quite fancy making a big chewy, caramelly, fruity. malty old ale to hide away until next autumn and I can see that the grainbill can probably be really simple, but I'm not entirely sure how what sort of balance between alcohol content/FG/hop bitterness to shoot for. I'm fond of Robinson's Old Tom, but that's not to say I'm looking for a clone.

Grainbill I'd guess at 85% pale, 10% crystal malts, 2% chocolate malt and 3% oats to 1.080 to get something around 8%ABV

I would guess at around 30-35IBU but not sure on this? Probably something English and earthy. Fuggles and Bramling Cross maybe.

It'll be dry yeast for simplicity. I have in stock Malt Miller 'Ale Yeast' and 'Ale Yeast 2' which are allegedly similar to Nottingham and Mauribrew 514, respectively. I'm leaning toward the latter, though could pick up some S-04 (or anything else for that matter) if better suited.

I want to brew 5 gallons, and do the secondary in glass demijohns for a month or two before bottling, which gives me the opportunity to add some extras. I want to do a gallon with cacao nibs, a gallon with licquorice root, a gallon with coffee, a gallon with some dark rum and one with nothing as a 'control'. Not sure on quantities or technique for the 'extras' though



Doesn't appear to really be a question now that I've written it out like that. Seems I sort of know what I want! I'd be grateful though, for any hints, corrections, suggestions to improve etc.

Cheers
Ben

[Redimpz]

I found that a little coffee goes a long way, I added a couple of Tbsp to a Coopers stout and it took over. I would also tend to be wary with the liquorice too.

[Nigel1969]

Be careful with the Brambling. It can give off some strange tastes. You don't want a Blackcurrent cordial type beer. I brewed a similar recipe, but used, First Gold. It's still conditioning, but a sneaky sample after 10 days, and it's tasting tremendous.

[Hanglow]

You should try one with brett in the secondary

[seymour]

Yes, it sounds like you've already got it mainly worked out. I agree with the Bramling Cross and brett comments.

In case you're interested, here are several more commercial Old Ale recipes for reference. I notice many of the best ones are dry-hopped. I notice some authentic English ales are low-grav, basically an aged version of English Mild, but others (especially American versions) are very high-grav, like a Barleywine.

Arundel Old Knucker
Arundel Brewery, Arundel, West Sussex, UK
OG: 1055
ABV: 5.5%
Grainbill: 82% Pale, 12% Crystal Malt, 6% Chocolate Malt
Hops: Fuggles, Goldings
Colour: brown

Avery Old Jubilation Ale
Avery Brewing Company, Boulder, Colorado, USA
OG: 1074
ABV: 8.3%
Grainbill: 88.3% Pale, 4.7% Special Roast Malt, 4.7% Victory Malt, 1.6% Chocolate Malt, .7% Black Malt
Early hops: Bullion
Late hops: Bullion (30 min and 0 min)
IBU: 45
Colour: mahogany
Yeast: the Worthington brewery English ale strain, available as Wyeast 1028

B & T Black Bat
Banks & Taylor/B & T, Shefford, Bedfordshire, UK
OG: 1064
ABV: 6.0%
Grainbill: 89% Pale, 10% Crystal Malt, 1% Black Malt
Early hops: Challenger, Fuggles
Late hops: Goldings
IBU: 42
Colour: very dark brown
Yeast: believed to borrow yeast from nearby Wells & Young, possibly related to White Labs WLP006

Bells Third Coast Old Ale
Bell's Beer, Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
OG: 1095
ABV: 9.0%
Grainbill: 92.3% Pale, 3.8% Victory Malt, 1.9% Pale Crystal Malt, 1.9% Crystal Malt
Early hops: Centennial (60 min)
Late hops: Centennial (20 min and flame-out)
IBU: 50
Colour: brown
Yeast: Anchor Liberty strain, available as Wyeast 1272 and White Labs WLP051

Stonehenge Old Smokey
Bunce's/Stonehenge Brewery (founded 1984, name change in 1993), Salisbury, Wiltshire, UK
OG: 1050
ABV: 5.0%
Grainbill: 88% Maris Otter, 3.5% Brown, 8.5% Torrified Wheat or Wheat Flour
Hops: Challenger, Omega, Goldings

Burton Bridge Old Expensive/OX Old Ale
Burton Bridge, Burton-Upon-Trent, Staffordshire, UK
OG: 1065
ABV: 6.5%
Grainbill: 88-94% Pale, <5% Chocolate Malt, up to 6% Invert Syrup
Hops: 50% Target, 50% Challenger
Colour: deep amber

Robinsons Old Tom
Frederic Robinson & Co/Unicorn Brewery/Hartleys, Stockport, Cheshire, UK
OG: 1080
ABV: 8.5%
Grainbill: 83.6% Pale, 7% Crystal Malt, 2.4% Chocolate Malt, 7% Caramel Syrup
Early hops: Northdown
Late hops: Goldings
Dry hops: Goldings
IBU: ≈25
Colour: dark brown
Yeast: high attenuating English ale yeast, fresh addition at bottling?

Gales Prize Old Ale (1920's-2005 bottles contain primary yeast)
George Gale & Co (now owned by Fullers), Hordean, Hampshire, UK
OG: 1094
ABV: 9.0%
Grainbill: 86% Maris Otter, 2% Black Malt 12% Brewer's Sugar Syrup (mash at 154°F for 60 min, add sugar to boil at 15 min remaining)
Early hops: Challenger (60 min)
Late hops: Fuggles & Goldings (10 min)
IBU: 48
Colour: brown
Yeast: historic Gales brewery strain, bottles contain classic strain until 2005 vintage, but so old it's likely dead. Ferment at 62°F.

Highgate Old Ale
Highgate Brewery/Davenports/HWBC Ltd (1898-present), Walsall, West Midlands, UK
OG: 1055
ABV: 5.1%
Grainbill: 91% Pale, 2% Crystal Malt, 2.5% Black Malt, 4.5% Invert Syrup
Early Hops: Progress
Late hops: Fuggles & Goldings or Challenger & Whitbread Goldings Variety
IBU: 30
Colour: very dark brown

Suddabys Auld Bob/Malton Owd Bob
Malton/Suddabys Brewery Ltd (Historic, closed 2004), Malton, North Yorkshire, UK
OG: 1055
ABV: 5.8%
Grainbill: 94% Pale, 3.3% Crystal Malt, 2.7% Black Malt
Hops: Challenger or Goldings
IBU: 49
Colour: 41/81, black

Marstons Old Empire
Marstons plc, Burton-Upon-Trent, Staffordshire, UK
ABV: 5.7%
Grainbill: 100% Optic
Early hops: Fuggles & Goldings
Late hops: Cascade
Colour: golden
Yeast: historic English ale strain, White Labs WLP026

Schlafly Old Ale
Saint Louis Brewery/Schlafly, Saint Louis, Missouri, USA
OG: 1074
ABV: 8.0%
Grainbill: Pale, Munich Malt, Flaked Wheat, Special-B Malt, Molasses
Hops: Northdown, Marynka (45 min)
IBU: 40
Colour: 14/28, copper
Yeast: Wyeast 1028 London Ale - Worthington brewery strain

Theakston Old Peculier
T. & R. Theakston, Masham, North Yorkshire, UK
OG: 1058
Grainbill: 80% Pale, 10% Crystal Malt, 2% Black Malt, 8% Invert Syrup
Early hops: Challenger, Fuggles
Late hops: Fuggles
Dry hops: Fuggle
IBU: 29
Colour: 48/95, opaque black
Yeast: unique historic Theakston English ale dual-strain brewery yeast from around 1900, still used in Yorkshire Squares, possibly in use by Black Sheep, possibly available as WLP037

Wadworth Old Timer
Wadworth & Co Devizes, Wiltshire, UK
OG: 1055
ABV: 5.8%
Grainbill: 90% Pale, 3% Crystal Malt, 7% Invert Syrup
Early hops: Fuggles
Late hops: Goldings
Dry hops: Goldings
IBU: 22
Colour: copper
Yeast: Fruity English ale yeast strain, bottled by Hepworth with live Brakspear yeast.

Wood's Sam Powell Old Sam
Wood's Brewery Craven Arms, Shropshire, UK
OG: 1048
Grainbill: 86.5% Pale, 5.5% Crystal Malt, 1% Chocolate Malt, 7% Wheat Flour
Hops: Fuggles, Goldings

[orlando]

Got one for Adnam's? I've been on the website and watched Fergus talk about it but not much given away.

[jaroporter]

not that i have much knowledge of styles or how they crossover, but old empire is marketed as an india pale ale. certainly shouldn't be aged in those skunky clear bottles they sell the crap in. surprisingly enough, fresh off the cask it's damn tasty!

and i do like the sound of a strong dark ale blended with rum..

[seymour]

Got one for Adnam's? I've been on the website and watched Fergus talk about it but not much given away.

Yeah, the Adnams Old Ale is just Pale Malt + Crystal Malt + Caramel Syrup to 4.1% ABV with Boadicea hops to 23 IBU, fermented with their proprietary dual-strain yeast at 64.4°F/18°C, available in mini-casks but not bottles. In fact, there are many, many English Old Ales which follow this regime, or even simpler: Pale Malt + Caramel Syrup. I only shared the more complex all-grain interpretations because that seems to be the direction Ben is heading.

Cheers!

[Ben711200]

Excellent feedback. Thank you all!

I found that a little coffee goes a long way, I added a couple of Tbsp to a Coopers stout and it took over. I would also tend to be wary with the liquorice too.

Noted. Was that a couple tablespoons of prepared coffee? Or grounds? Instant?
I'd be grateful of advice on quantities and techniques for adding all of the additions as it's something of a new area for me.

Be careful with the Brambling. It can give off some strange tastes. You don't want a Blackcurrent cordial type beer. I brewed a similar recipe, but used, First Gold. It's still conditioning, but a sneaky sample after 10 days, and it's tasting tremendous.

Also noted. I've quite liked it when used previously, but I imagine I don't especially want something that will compete to be the dominant flavour too much in this.

You should try one with brett in the secondary

Good call

Yes, it sounds like you've already got it mainly worked out. I agree with the Bramling Cross and brett comments.

In case you're interested, here are several more commercial Old Ale recipes for reference. I notice many of the best ones are dry-hopped. I notice some authentic English ales are low-grav, basically an aged version of English Mild, but others (especially American versions) are very high-grav, like a Barleywine.
{{{SNIP}}}

Thanks Seymour. I'm fairly set on going for higher gravity for this one though it's interesting to see that my perception of Old Ale is perhaps a little flawed. Thanks for the recipes too. Good to see that what I had in mind is fairly close to what you have listed for Old Tom. It seems surprising that approaches to the style are so varied. I'll see if I can consolidate my favourite bits into a single recipe!

[Barley Water]

I have an Olde Ale in a keg that has been sitting around for about 1 1/2 years (I think it now qualifies as being old anyway). I don't have the recipe in front of me and it's been so long since I brewed it I really don't remember what the hell I did back then. I do however remember it being pretty big (maybe 1.085 or so O.G.) and adding some molassis and as I recall, you could taste it in the finished beer. My plan (such as it is) is to force carbonate the beer in the the keg then bottle the whole thing using my counter pressure filler. We have our big contest in March so I'll throw three bottles of it in there and see how it does. In the mean time, once I get it bottled I can then break out my snifter and enjoy it by the fire; God willing.

[DaveyT]

A note about liquorice: I was pointed towards the juice extract sticks on another post on Jims. I used about a centimetre in a gallon batch and it's just enough for me to notice it but not taste it, if you know what I mean. Exactly what I wanted but you might want a bit more.

[Ben711200]

The liquorice I have is root that has sort of been shredded. I got it from The Malt Miller
http://themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a ... ductId=381

Actually, I got cocoa nibs from there too. I've had a nibble on these and they're lovely!
http://themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a ... ductId=450

[Ben711200]

I ended up taking a rather relaxed attitude to this one and made some retrospective adjustments. It was the festive period, afterall, so no point stressing needlessly

Without my notes to hand.. I roughly followed the grain bill of Old Tom to 1.080, and went to about 30IBU with a mix of Fuggles and Archer. It was fermented with The Malt Miller's 'Ale Yeast 2' which gave up at 70% attenuation, about 1.023. As that seemed a little high for my tastes, and I was a bit worried after further reading (I got Radical Brewing for Christmas!) about the amount of bitterness I'd lose with the long conditioning, I boiled up some more fuggles and archer ('some' ) for an hour in couple litres of water, strained, added 350g or so of sugar to my hop tea and gave it a quick further boil. Once chilled down, I lobbed it in the FV and waited for the sugar to ferment out. That dropped me down to 1.018, which seemed more tolerable.

I didn't bulk age in secondaries, but I did bottle a(n imperial) gallon at a time by racking to a demijohn with my chosen additions. A gallon 'plain', a gallon with a small amount of freshly made filter coffee, a gallon with 20g of vodka steeped cocoa nibs and a gallon with 6 or 7g of licquorice root steeped in vodka.

Thanks to all for the input and guidance. I think it'll come out well, even if I did wing it a bit!

[orlando]

I ended up taking a rather relaxed attitude to this one and made some retrospective adjustments. It was the festive period, afterall, so no point stressing needlessly

Without my notes to hand.. I roughly followed the grain bill of Old Tom to 1.080, and went to about 30IBU with a mix of Fuggles and Archer. It was fermented with The Malt Miller's 'Ale Yeast 2' which gave up at 70% attenuation, about 1.023. As that seemed a little high for my tastes, and I was a bit worried after further reading (I got Radical Brewing for Christmas!) about the amount of bitterness I'd lose with the long conditioning, I boiled up some more fuggles and archer ('some' ) for an hour in couple litres of water, strained, added 350g or so of sugar to my hop tea and gave it a quick further boil. Once chilled down, I lobbed it in the FV and waited for the sugar to ferment out. That dropped me down to 1.018, which seemed more tolerable.

I didn't bulk age in secondaries, but I did bottle a(n imperial) gallon at a time by racking to a demijohn with my chosen additions. A gallon 'plain', a gallon with a small amount of freshly made filter coffee, a gallon with 20g of vodka steeped cocoa nibs and a gallon with 6 or 7g of licquorice root steeped in vodka.

Thanks to all for the input and guidance. I think it'll come out well, even if I did wing it a bit!

How long will you leave it in DJ's ? I hope you keep us posted, an interesting experiment.

[Ben711200]

sorry, to be clearer, i racked to a dj with my flavourings to measure and mix then bottled immediately. i was planning on leaving another month in secondary but am lacking space and will struggle for time as i get nearer to new parenthood again