Trappist Dubbel AG

[Theo]

Hello to all the members.
I am going to brew my first Belgian style beer and i have chosen the Dubbel style. Here is a recipe i have planned and i would like to hear your comments and suggestions:

Malts
Dingemans Pilsen (2.7EBC) / 75.8% (5kg)
Aromatic Malt (Dingemans) (50,0 EBC) / 7.6% (0,50kg)
Biscuit (Dingemans) (55,0 EBC) / 7,6% (0,50kg)
Caravienna Malt (Dingemans) (50,0 EBC) / 7,6% (0,50kg)
Special B (Dingemans) (300,0 EBC) / 1,5% (0,10kg)

Hops
Goldings, East Kent [5,50 %] - Boil 60,0 min / 25gr
Saaz [3,75 %] - Boil 15,0 min / 20gr

Yeast
Trappist Ale (White Labs #WLP500)

Est Original Gravity: 1,069 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1,017 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6,9
Bitterness: 17,0 IBUs
Est Color: 25,9 EBC

I plan not to use any candi sugar, to give the beer more body and depth.
What do you think?
Is it going to be a nice beer?
Thanks!

[MTW]

For me, the style should not have much body, for good reason. What is lacked in body is, in a way, replaced in the mouthfeel by high carbonation. Stan Hieronymous uses the term 'digestible'. They are relatively easy drinking for the ABV.

That said, brew the way you want your beers, though I would put a minimum of 10% sugar in this.

[Barley Water]

Well I have quite a bit of experience with that style and I'll give you the benefit of my numerous screw ups.

First of all, I agree with MTW; candi sugar is your friend. If you are willing to pay for the dark liquid stuff (and I wouldn't even bother with the rock sugar) it will add flavor, darken the beer a little and as MTW says make it more quaffable. Added sugar is one of the hallmarks of these Belgian styles and I personally would take advantage of that and have some fun. I have had good luck using jaggery (which you can source in ethnic markets) along with the candi sugar. You want the beer to attenuate and this is one of the major ways to do that.

I have made quite a bit of beer using WLP500 and it's a good strain however it can get really fruity and will throw quite a bit of bananna if it gets too warm (bananna is considered a style flaw in contests for whatever that is worth). WLP 530 works really well also and you don't run into those problems as much with this strain. I switched to WLP530 a couple of years ago and immediatley won a metal in a really large competition so it's not just me. Of course Chimay has made a butt load of money using their yeast but you really need to keep it under control which is not easy when doing high gravity brewing. Temperature control is madatory, if the stuff gets too hot all the Belgian strains will start throwing fusels which will screw up the taste and give you a hell of a headache.

Finally, I am big on finding something to make my beer different and with this style I want a real rummy, dark fruit flavor. What I ended up doing is running 6 ounces of raisins (5 gallon batch) through a blender with some first runnings of wort then boiling the whole thing down on the stove to carmelize the sugars in the wort and the raisins. You can taste it in the beer and it's really nice.

As I mentioned, really do want the beer to attenuate and to that end you want a really big yeast starter. My favorite way to do that is to make an Abbey Single then repitch the yeast; you end up with two great beers from one vial of yeast (yeah ok, I'm also cheap). Oh and since this is your first Belgian remember, it's always much better to drink these types of beer out of a challace. Is it geeky.....sure but trust me on this.

[GrowlingDogBeer]

Watching this thread with interest, I have grown fond of the Belgian beers since my visit to the Post Office vaults in Brum which has rather a large selection.

For further research I have treated myself to a few samples, and the chalice

[MTW]

I second the 'Westmalle' WLP 530 (WY 3787). I used this on my first AG brew with 13% sucrose and big (0.7>3.5l) stepped starter and it ripped through from 1.085 to 1.009. I've used it four times since and it's a stunner. Having used the 'Rochefort' WLP 540 recently, I'm so glad I used the 530 first. Even with a lot of good practice, the 1.079 Rochefort stuck 8 points from where it would eventually end at 1.008 following a 1 litre additional active starter of US-05. With that, I definitely think a smaller beer then bigger one (with much of the cake) may be the way to go: it's essentially what the monks do with it. I've yet to use the Chimay (500).

[Theo]

Thanks for all the replies! I really appreciate this!
I prefer to use the WLP500 because i personally like the fruity character of Chimay beer and Trappist beers in general. This will be my first belgian anyway, so i think i could start with it and see how it goes.
I also liked the raisin idea and being from Greece and from a raisin producing area, it will not be difficult to source some good and fresh quantity of raisins.
What about the malt bill? Do you think it's designed correctly?
And lastly don't you think my beer will attenuate sufficiently without a yeast starter, just using one vial of WLP500?

[Theo]

Thanks for all the replies! I really appreciate this!
I prefer to use the WLP500 because i personally like the fruity character of Chimay beer and Trappist beers in general. In general, i prefer malty anf fruity beers, i don't like hop-biased beers.
This will be my first belgian anyway, so i think i could start with it and see how it goes.
I also liked the raisin idea and being from Greece and from a raisin producing area, it will not be difficult to source some good and fresh quantity of raisins.
What about the malt bill? Do you think it's designed correctly?
And lastly don't you think my beer will attenuate sufficiently without a yeast starter, just using one vial of WLP500?

[Barley Water]

In a word, no. You are doing high gravity brewing my friend and the reason those styles are considered more difficult than a normal strenght ale is because you can get into fermentation problems if you don't control the fermentation correctly. I always make a starter with only one exception (I underpitch that style on purpose but that's the only one). High gravity worts stress the yeast and stressed yeast throw off sometimes less than flavorful fermentation by products, especially fusels. I hate judging Belgian beers in contests because you are almost guaranteed to sample a few brews with really hot, solvent like flavors which frankly wreaks the beer (and gives the judges a great big headache). There are two ways to get those type of flavors, one is to ferment at too high a temperature and the other is to under pitch. As I mentioned, my favorite technique is to make a lower gravity beer with the yeast then repitch. Absent that, I think I would make up at least a 1/2 gallon starter to get the pitch count up high enough. As long as we are discussing fermentation, I would start the yeast at no higher than 65F and maybe move the temperature up a degree a day after it gets going really well so that the beer attenuates. The fermentation by products are produced in the lag phase while the yeast is reproducing but before it starts to really ferement the beer (and that's why doing a diacetyl rest doesn't cause flavor problems). As discussed WLP500 can get really fruity and it becomes a problem as the fermentation temperature rises, even if you don't get the fusels. You know that you have done it correctly when you don't really notice the booze until you try to stand up after quaffing a couple of these beers. By the way, if you ever mess with lagers the whole issue concerning pitch rate is a really, really big deal.

[Mther]

Watching this thread with interest, I have grown fond of the Belgian beers since my visit to the Post Office vaults in Brum which has rather a large selection.

For further research I have treated myself to a few samples, and the chalice

Do you need a research assistant? I can attach my CV

[beerlion]

Very helpful advice from Barley Water, it will be useful when I brew my next Dubbel.

And nice photo from GrowlingDogBeer. I love the Post Office Vaults, in fact, I'm off there this afternoon

[MTW]

http://www.valleybar.co.uk/belgium_beer_menu.php
Luck to have a local watering hole that keeps 100 of them, even in the sprawling metropolis that is Scarborough.

[Rivvo]

Very interesting and good advice there from Barley water, any chance you could post your recipe for the Abbey single you brewed as I have been considering doing exactly what you suggest after a bad experience with a previous attempt at a Dubbel!
I wouldn't mind the Dubbel recipe as well if you feel so inclined.
PS for the OP there is a 'how to' guide on making your own Candi sugar or syrup if it's not easy to find where you are (just google it, thats what I did, just need sugar, water and cream of tartar IIRC)

[Barley Water]

If I remember correctly the grist was Belgian pils malt and maybe 1/2 a pound of special roast or bisquet malt in a 5 gallon batch. O.G. was about 1.048 (that's considered session beer over here). I also used WLP550 if I remember right and I think bitterness was about 25 IBU or so (noble hops). I really need to look at my recipe book to remember exactly what I did and I'll try to update this post. At the time I was trying to make a Triple with the yeast so next time I make the beer I'd likely use WLP530. By the way, my plan next time I brew this is to get the beer to dry out more by both mashing at a lower temperature and changing the grist by reducing the pils malt a bit and replacing it with sugar so as to keep the O.G. the same. I really hate to add straight table sugars to beers as I see sugar additions as an opportunity to add unique flavors. With this beer though I want to keep the color light and my primary motivation is to dry the beer out.......bottom line, I'm not sure at this writing exactly what I'm gonna do. Oh, and you can also add light spices or the rind of oranges, lemons or grapefruit. That's why Belgians are so much fun to brew; you can really let your "freak flag fly" and it's ok.

[Rivvo]

Thanks, I thought you were referrring to the Dubbel with an og of 1048' lol!
I think I'm going to go for a 'Pater's Biere' with Pilsner malt and a small ammount of wheat malt and noble hops (Beersmith puts the final ABV at 4.1% on the recipe I put in), I think I'm going for a liquid trappist ale yeast and will then pitch a dubbel/trappist on top of the yeast cake, I don't know whether to repeat my previous recipe (which failed because of poor yeast pitching and fermentation, my fault entirely down to inexperience) or to go for a new one.

[serum]

I really hate to add straight table sugars to beers as I see sugar additions as an opportunity to add unique flavors. With this beer though I want to keep the color light and my primary motivation is to dry the beer out.......bottom line, I'm not sure at this writing exactly what I'm gonna do.

I tend to use orange blossom honey in my blonds and saisons instead of sugar and that works really well. You don't get a real honey flavour but a bit of the perfumed smell can come through which is very nice. It's very fermentable too. I'd like to find a local honey supplier to get something regional as I think that'd work really nicely. Might be worth a try.