Fluke Brew or Looks plausable?

[Madbrewer]

Hi All, fairly new to this forum, been away from brewing for a while, just got my old brewing diary out, blown off the dust and seen a lager recipe that worked once and failed when I tried to repeat the excercise. When It worked I only got 14 Litres of the finished product but it went down as the nicest lager I ever made. The only problem is I don't know what inspired me with this recipe. I think the Malt Bill was loosely based on a GW DAB recipe/idea but tried to lighten the flavour slightly, and I really can't say why I went with Cascade Hops as I have no idea!


OG 1.044
FG 1.012
2800g lager malt
400g flaked rice
400g flaked Maize
400g Munich Malt

(52 celcius 30 mins
66 celcius 60 mins
boil time 90 mins)

35g cascade 90 mins
12g cascade 10 mins

Saflager yeast

If anyone's up for the challenge, could they put it through the idiot-filter and hedge a bet as to whether I am likely to get success with this if I try it again? .... or have I possibly substituted something here and carelessly put in a different ingredient without noting it or realising? If you tasted the finished product you'd realise why I want to repeat the experiment. The time it worked it was mashed 21/3/98 and by the time I got around to drinking it, I noted a good foam retention, and an almost Heinekan-like level of hoppiness but somehow fresher and slightly maltier in flavour, though with the ingredients listed I am not totally sure how.




thanks for any comments (good or bad)

Phil

[Aleman]

Looks fine to me, although I'd NEVER use cascade as to my taste its too much like a lactic infection

The rice will lighten the flavour, but then you'll boost the malt profile with the Munich, the corn will provide 'sweetness'.

Substitute Hallertau or Tettnang and it'll be a nice European lager

[Dan]

it all looks good to me. most often lagerbrews differ because of fermenting temps. unless you can control it, it will be hard to replicate the batch.

the only thing i could say is watch your ratio of malt to adjuncts.
munich isnt high in diastatic power.
that leaves about 28% adjuncts against 72% lager malt.
if your wort doesnt ferment down well, you could try shooting for a lower amount of adjucnts.

[Aleman]

the only thing i could say is watch your ratio of malt to adjuncts.
munich isnt high in diastatic power.
that leaves about 28% adjuncts against 72% lager malt.

My CAP recipe has up to 30% Corn, and the remaining grist is 1/3 Munich and 2/3 Pilsner, Never had any problems with the beer finishing high, Looking at the Specs for Weyermann Munich and Pilsner the Hartong index (Measure of enzymatic activity) is pretty much the same, implying that Munich will convert the same as the Pilsner.

One of my beers for this winter is a 100% Munich dopplebock which should be fun.

[Madbrewer]

I think with everyone's advice so far - I am going to make amendments to both the Fermentables and the hops. Possibly the low yield first time holds the key as to why it did not work subsequently. Using the equations out of both 'Home Brewing - The CAMRA Guide' and also 'Designing Great Beers' My EBU's would be around 17 if I had made my 23 Litres as the hop effect would have been diluted somewhat. Though impossible to say exactly what it was EBU-wise, it is likely that at the concentrations I experienced that what I had was a brew hopped to just under 28 EBU's. I must confess I had not considered the likelyhood of the enzymes in the mash being less successful subsequently. When I get half an hour to rework it I am goign to aim for 30EBU's, cut down on the rice & post a new recipe to go back through the 'Idiot Filter' that also incorporates different hop variety for half of the bitterness.

I can't seem to find enough advice in my book collection about tuning to different flavours by adjusting different Malts and Hops. Ray Daniels allows for recipe calculation by listing every type of beer that occured to him whilst authoring the book and profiling it in such a way that makes sence of the typical ingredients used. While this is certainly a sensible step in coming up with the recipe, it doesn't help me with what I need to do to a recipe next time around. Papazian goes into some of the effects you don't want want and explains possible causes. Has anyone read a starting point for describing different levels of sweetness / body/ bitterness & aromas and how to 'tune' them? I suppose the topic is very relative with the fact that yeasts, fermenting temperature and water chemistry can also have such a dramatic effect on the finished beer.

[Madbrewer]

I did the maths again and thought that had the full yield have worked the UBU's would have been around 17 and not the 25 that I got due to poor efficiency in the mash. I also decided that the Flaked Maize and some of the rice could go therefore in favour of allowing the enzymes more of of a chance. (more concentrated overall) as advised by DAN (if I understood what you were saying?).

TJB: I took 'some' of the advice & compromised with my hops slightly by blending the cascade with Hallertau & so my recipe now look s like this:-

PAL (Phil's Amended Lager)
--------------------------------

OG 1.046 <-- upped a 'tad'
FG 1.012 <-- guess work
30EBU's ... 25litres volume

4,100g lager malt
200g flaked rice
600g Munich Malt
(52 celcius 30 mins, 66 celcius 60 mins, boil time 90 mins).

26g Cascade (90)
22g Hallertau which is a 7.5 alpha value (90)
12g Cascase (5-10 mins)
Saflager yeast

Though I doubt I'll be brewing this until January (am Mashing my landlord-alike 28/10 & Hornden Hillbilly Lager sometime in December) I'll let you know how it turns out. Anyone fancy hazarding a guess at the flavours/ drinkability of the final brew?

Another question, though not for this recipe, whilst desirable for many Lager attributes to do stepped infusion mashes or decoction mashes. It seems lager malt could be single infusion mashed at 65 degrees (Home Brewing - The Camra Guide. G. Wheeler). Has anyone experienced brewing a lager with a 'one step' mash (i.e. without the traditional stepped approach to their mashes?)

[Aleman]

Anyone fancy hazarding a guess at the flavours/ drinkability of the final brew?

Grapefruit

Another question, though not for this recipe, whilst desirable for many Lager attributes to do stepped infusion mashes or decoction mashes. It seems lager malt could be single infusion mashed at 65 degrees (Home Brewing - The Camra Guide. G. Wheeler). Has anyone experienced brewing a lager with a 'one step' mash (i.e. without the traditional stepped approach to their mashes?)

I have NO problem doing Czech pilsners with single infusion mashes using Weyermann Pilsner, Munich, and Melanoidin Malts.

Certainly unless you are extremely lucky to get hold of some Moravian pilsner malt there is NO NEED TO STEP MASH ANY MODERN MALT!!!! At least as far as conversion and efficiency is concerned. You do get some interesting flavour contributions from a DECOCTION (Not a RIMS Step Up or Infusion) Step up, but these can be simulated very well with an appropriate choice of 'flavour' malts

[Chiltern Brewer]

Looks fine to me, although I'd NEVER use cascade as to my taste its too much like a lactic infection

and

Grapefruit

It's good to know there's someone else who doesn't like cascade!

I only found out about the grapefruit flavour after using them for the first time - I thought at first I'd got an infected brew! I understand it gets worse (stronger) as the hops age?

[Madbrewer]

Right That's IT!!

A rework in favour of Hallertau & Saaz (or may see what hop-clues I get from Protz's Beer Encylopedia) becons & I will obliterate the hops in favour of more traditional ones. There's too Many negative comments for me to want to risk it, so I do appreciate these hints and tips but it's confusing to me as I definetely had ONE good brew with that (original) Recipe.

The only thing I can sort of see in favour of the orginal Hop Bill is that the lager pruduced would have been light on bitterness (24 - 25 ibus) Can't remember what I hated about the brews that followed but it seems logical that the mash could have had a few too little enzymes for starch conversion, and the extra liquor would have lowered the Bitterness in tandem I probably had a very corn like, sweet and unfermentable brew?!

Maybe a very low IBU with a grapefruit like hop was 'OK' first time around as there was alot left to mask the ill effects of the cascade?

Will post an updated recipe before I do it!!

cheers

Phil