The marmalade in Fullers

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by McMullan » Thu May 21, 2020 3:31 pm

Our own taste buds - how they're wired - no doubt play a big part and they're probably almost as diverse as our fingerprints. For me, there's a mild underlying 'marmalade' theme generally in the English bitter style. And with so many factors contributing to the experience - including where and with who it's enjoyed - it all gets very abstract, but that's part of the fun - the mysterious conclusion we can't quite nail down for certain. The bit beyond the Brewer.

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by Northern Brewer » Thu May 21, 2020 6:11 pm

staghill wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 3:27 pm
I have been drinking Fullers all my life and there is definitely an orangey twang to the beers, especially in the bottles. My old Dad would never touch ESB because of the strength. He used to call it Burton Ale because that was what he said it was called in the 1970s.
Not quite. Burton Ales were one of the standard styles of British beer - relatively dark and sweet - that almost died out after WWII but there's a few survivors like Young's Winter Warmer and Old Peculier. Fuller's used to partigyle BO (the regular Burton Ale) and OBE (Old Burton Extra) with their X Mild. But gravities fell during WWII so BO effectively filled the role of a Best Mild elsewhere, and OBE fell below 1.050, struggling on until 1969 when it was replaced by a different beer initially as a seasonal, which was ESB. ESB then became a core beer in 1971, and is partigyled with London Pride.

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by Bad 'Ed » Thu May 21, 2020 7:28 pm

Hayley from Fuller's posted this a while back, I assume it is the ESB, however I can't remember the post in question.

I'm going to guess this makes 1 ESB, 2 London Prides and a Chiswick Bitter. Although what the process after this is I don't know.
IMG_20171230_143259.jpg
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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by Northern Brewer » Thu May 21, 2020 10:58 pm

Discussed in more detail, with a homebrew recipe that apparently is pretty close, over on HBT :
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/thre ... th.642756/

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by Dennis King » Fri May 22, 2020 11:15 am

Northern Brewer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 6:11 pm
staghill wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 3:27 pm
I have been drinking Fullers all my life and there is definitely an orangey twang to the beers, especially in the bottles. My old Dad would never touch ESB because of the strength. He used to call it Burton Ale because that was what he said it was called in the 1970s.
Not quite. Burton Ales were one of the standard styles of British beer - relatively dark and sweet - that almost died out after WWII but there's a few survivors like Young's Winter Warmer and Old Peculier. Fuller's used to partigyle BO (the regular Burton Ale) and OBE (Old Burton Extra) with their X Mild. But gravities fell during WWII so BO effectively filled the role of a Best Mild elsewhere, and OBE fell below 1.050, struggling on until 1969 when it was replaced by a different beer initially as a seasonal, which was ESB. ESB then became a core beer in 1971, and is partigyled with London Pride.
I used to drink Fullers a fair bit in the 1970s and only saw ESB and pride as cask ales.

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by Silver_Is_Money » Fri May 22, 2020 5:22 pm

Would adding a couple ounces of actual marmalade to the fermenter work?

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by IPA » Sat May 23, 2020 7:59 am

Northern Brewer wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 12:44 am
Might be something that gets lost in mediocre cask?
Or it's a personal sensitivity thing?

I'm trying to think when I last had any of the main partigyle from cask but certainly bottles of ESB bought recently-ish in London have had the orange character for me.
"main party gyle" ????
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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by k1100t » Sat May 23, 2020 8:27 am

IPA wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:59 am
"main party gyle" ????
Fuller's famously parti-gyle: The last one mentions marmalade in relation to Pride.
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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by IPA » Sun May 24, 2020 8:12 am

k1100t wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:27 am
IPA wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:59 am
"main party gyle" ????
Fuller's famously parti-gyle: The last one mentions marmalade in relation to Pride.
I know what the term "party gyle"means but I don't understand "main party gyle"
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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by k1100t » Sun May 24, 2020 9:40 am

IPA wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:12 am
I know what the term "party gyle"means but I don't understand "main party gyle"
Their core beers are patri-gyled, i.e. all their main beers, Pride, ESB etc... 🤷‍♂️
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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by PeeBee » Sun May 24, 2020 12:45 pm

Silver_Is_Money wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 5:22 pm
Would adding a couple ounces of actual marmalade to the fermenter work?
I think the description of "marmalade" is more abstract than that? I struggled with it for ages until I dispensed with my idea of marmalade (high fruit content, loads of bitter Seville oranges, probably thick-cut) and thought "supermarket marmalade". Even then its more of a "reminds you of". I think the addition of real marmalade might be a bit in-your-face. But dried bitter orange peel does get added to some "Belgium" styles.


k1100t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 9:40 am
IPA wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:12 am
I know what the term "party gyle"means but I don't understand "main party gyle"
Their core beers are patri-gyled, i.e. all their main beers, Pride, ESB etc... 🤷‍♂️
Don't fight it! Especially don't make spelling mistakes in your replies ("patri-"?). I think "IPA", being "self-isolated" in France, likes to flex his grasp of English. He's got me a few times. And, most importantly, he's always right! :(



But I don't think Fuller's actually practice true parti-gyling? I think true "parti-gyle" should be restricted to the old practice of successive mashing and running off from the same grain. No sparging. Whereas Fuller's turn out a single high-gravity runoff and dilute to get different beers (and more than just Fuller's do, or did, this). "Golden Pride" is possibly the beer made from the "mother" runoff. If that's correct, it isn't really "parti-gyle".
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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by Northern Brewer » Sun May 24, 2020 1:50 pm

k1100t wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 9:40 am
IPA wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:12 am
I know what the term "party gyle"means but I don't understand "main party gyle"
Their core beers are patri-gyled, i.e. all their main beers, Pride, ESB etc... 🤷‍♂️
Exactly - I was trying to be economical, because I have had some of their core beers on cask that aren't in the main partigyle (like the porter), and beers on cask derived from the partigyle but not "regulars" (like Vintage which is derived from Golden Pride), but I haven't had Chiswick/Pride/ESB on cask in a while.
PeeBee wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:45 pm
But I don't think Fuller's actually practice true parti-gyling? I think true "parti-gyle" should be restricted to the old practice of successive mashing and running off from the same grain. No sparging. Whereas Fuller's turn out a single high-gravity runoff and dilute to get different beers
Nope, they're a true partigyle and yes they sparge, although it's confused by using two mash tuns - as explained by John Keeling at Brewcon18 (although the video is almost unusable), George Young explains it here :

“The mash tun stand is simple infusion at 65° C [149° F] of 50 minutes. We then recirculate the bed for 10 minutes until the wort is clear and start collecting it in the copper.” They collect the first worts from both mash tuns—the high-gravity worts—into one kettle (known in Britain as a copper). Young continues: “When [the first kettle] is full (520HL) we continue the sparge on both mash tuns but collect the [small] worts into the second copper. The last runnings are typically 1005 SG for both mash tuns.”

They boil the strong and weak worts separately, adding hops at the start and end of the 60-minute boil. “So we now start proportioning the wort to make the beers,” Young explains. “We know the target extract, so all we have to do is calculate how much first wort and then second wort is needed to achieve 260HL in each fermentation vessel at the correct original gravity.” And from these two worts come the four beers, in strengths of 8.5% (Golden Pride), 5.9% (ESB), 4.7% (London Pride), and 3.5% (Chiswick).

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by PeeBee » Sun May 24, 2020 2:22 pm

Northern Brewer wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 1:50 pm
PeeBee wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:45 pm
But I don't think Fuller's actually practice true parti-gyling? I think true "parti-gyle" should be restricted to the old practice of successive mashing and running off from the same grain. No sparging. Whereas Fuller's turn out a single high-gravity runoff and dilute to get different beers
Nope, they're a true partigyle and yes they sparge, although it's confused by using two mash tuns - as explained by John Keeling at Brewcon18 (although the video is almost unusable), George Young explains it here :

“The mash tun stand is simple infusion at 65° C [149° F] of 50 minutes. We then recirculate the bed for 10 minutes until the wort is clear and start collecting it in the copper.” They collect the first worts from both mash tuns—the high-gravity worts—into one kettle (known in Britain as a copper). Young continues: “When [the first kettle] is full (520HL) we continue the sparge on both mash tuns but collect the [small] worts into the second copper. The last runnings are typically 1005 SG for both mash tuns.”

They boil the strong and weak worts separately, adding hops at the start and end of the 60-minute boil. “So we now start proportioning the wort to make the beers,” Young explains. “We know the target extract, so all we have to do is calculate how much first wort and then second wort is needed to achieve 260HL in each fermentation vessel at the correct original gravity.” And from these two worts come the four beers, in strengths of 8.5% (Golden Pride), 5.9% (ESB), 4.7% (London Pride), and 3.5% (Chiswick).
Thanks! But I have read that. Okay, they don't "dilute" the end result, they do something cleverer. I had forgotten they do this "two worts" thing.

But I still argue its not really "parti-gyle" as envisaged a couple hundred years ago or more (when there was no such thing as "sparging"). But I'll accept ones personal definition of "parti-gyle" can be stretched to what Fullers get up to. If you want it to. It's more like I was doing with my last brew; rescuing a significant proportion of a beer from a vessel with clogged up extraction pipes and turning the rescued proportion into a weaker beer.
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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by Greg » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:48 am

Hi, the key word marmalade got my attention as I’ve just read about the malt I will be using today. Sounds like it could help get the flavour profile

https://crispmalt.com/malts/chevallier-heritage-malt/

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Re: The marmalade in Fullers

Post by ingo » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:01 am

Recently made a strong pale ale:

OG 1.065
50/50 TF mild malt/ pale malt 75 min, 2.75 l/kg @67°C
45 IBU EKG @ FWH (~3g/l)
13 IBU EKG @ Whirlpool (~5 g/l)
1 g/l EKG in the fermenter @ start
WLP026
It's still fermenting, now at 73%
It tastes, it smells, it's all marmelade.

Ingo

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