spray malt for all grain

[rocket ronnie]

When I make a coopers beer kit I always use spray malt instead of sugar. I mix the spray malt in a little cold water in the f/v before I add the beer kit and then as instructed make it up to the required volume to strength. No boiling at all. Now what I want to ask is:- I have read somewhere that when adding spray malt to an all grain recipe the spray malt should be included in the boil. Now I have decided that I want to use spray malt instead of sugar in my grain beers also. Why cannot I just add the spray malt as I do with a kit instead of boiling it? Could I do the same by mixing the spray malt in a little cold water in the f/v first then when my boil is finished ,just pour this onto the spray malt mixture?

[Meatymc]

I think the accepted wisdom is boiling with the grain for 60/75/90 minutes sanitises it and removes any possibility of introducing an infection to the susceptible, cooled, pre-fermentation wort

[Kev888]

Wort from grain is boiled for a number of reasons, which include to sterilise it, to drive off unwanted stuff like DMS and to clump and separate out
proteins etc. Many modern home-brew extracts have already had such things happen in their production to some degree (though it was not always so and still isn't necessarily a given), so it is not always necessary to boil it. In kit brews that saves an extra step and extra equipment.

However in all-grain brewing, you are boiling the wort anyway - so it may be more a question of why "wouldn't" you simply add the extract to the boil? There may be reasons (like limited capacity pots), but adding things like extract (and even water) cold to the fermenter is an extra step and poses a greater risk of introducing infection than adding it to the boil, which both sterilises it and adds a little more peace of mind if you aren't sure how well it was produced.

In all-grain brewing there is often a distinction made between pre-boil hot-side activities, and post-boil cold-side activities. The former are relatively free of worry with respect to disinfection and sterilisation since the boil will subsequently kill off most things; it is a luxury not present in cold/kit brewing and is worth taking advantage of where possible.

Often you wouldn't add extract to a grain brew, because you are extracting the maltose etc wanted from the grains yourself. However extract can still be convenient for adjusting gravity or to help out with extremely high gravity beers. Don't completely overlook other fermentables though; huge amounts of refined sugar in kits can give them a bad reputation but there can be legitimate reasons for using smaller amounts, especially of unrefined or flavoured types such as syrup and candy sugar or where a very high ABV beer may be too heavy and cloying if made entirely with malt.

[Fil]

Kits of old did require a boil, while the modern kits seem to exclude this part so i have assumed the modern malt extracts undergo some sort of hot break in their concentration.

However when preparing some liquor for making slants with DME, I followed instructions to the letter and it called for boiling the liquor for 30-40 minutes, and when i did this occurred..


Im not the best photographer, but the dense opaque clouds of protein were clearly visible in the second previous transparent simmering liquor.

draw your own conclusions, but to me this suggests that DME if used in a brew would benefit from a boil to achieve the hot break, without it your beer may still turn out well but you may not achieve the clarity you may desire. so get an opaque quaffing vessel

[Kev888]

Yes Fil, I agree. You can still get hot (and cold) break after boiling DME (at least the types I've used, anyway), which suggests to me there is benefit in boiling it even if its not strictly a requirement in cold/kit brewing. I wouldn't boil modern kits or hopped extract though, certainly not for long, as that would likely mess with their flavour profiles.

[PhilB]

Hi Ronnie

Quite separate from the discussion about whether DME needs boiling or not ...

Now I have decided that I want to use spray malt instead of sugar in my grain beers also.

... I'd question why you would add DME to an AG brew at all

We can see that "kit and kilo" kits in general have been produced to a price, to appeal to home brewers on a certain budget, and when brewing to that budget adding a kilo of the cheapest fermentables available (table sugar) will help to keep the price down ... but then it was a natural progression that brewers would discover that adding higher quality (higher priced) fermentables would produce a higher quality product, and it's always been down to the individual brewer to decide how much they would be willing to spend, to get that better quality ... in many ways, AG brewing can be thought of as a way of bringing down the overall cost of higher quality ingredients, but at the "cost" of having to spend much more time and effort on a brewday

Given all of that, we should probably recognise, that when an AG brewer adds simple sugar(s) into his/her recipe, then they're not (always) just trying to keep the price down (at the cost of reduced quality) ... sometimes it's there to provide fermentables that will increase the attenuation levels of the yeast (to dry out the beer), sometimes it's to add darkened (caramelised) sugars that will add extra flavours ... AG brewers don't really need to write "malt derived sugar GOOD, cane/beet derived sugar BAD" on the barn wall

However, if you do review the recipe that you're planning to brew, and decide (for whatever reason) that you don't want the simple sugar involved then instead of replacing the sugar (gram for gram) with DME, replace it in the recipe with the appropriate amount of base malt ... ideally you'd calculate the extra base malt with some recipe calculator but as a rough "rule of thumb", replacing the weight of sugar/DME in the recipe with 1.66 times that of Pale Malt in your grain bill will get you thereabouts

Cheers, PhilB

[rocket ronnie]

Hi Ronnie

Quite separate from the discussion about whether DME needs boiling or not ...

Now I have decided that I want to use spray malt instead of sugar in my grain beers also.

... I'd question why you would add DME to an AG brew at all

We can see that "kit and kilo" kits in general have been produced to a price, to appeal to home brewers on a certain budget, and when brewing to that budget adding a kilo of the cheapest fermentables available (table sugar) will help to keep the price down ... but then it was a natural progression that brewers would discover that adding higher quality (higher priced) fermentables would produce a higher quality product, and it's always been down to the individual brewer to decide how much they would be willing to spend, to get that better quality ... in many ways, AG brewing can be thought of as a way of bringing down the overall cost of higher quality ingredients, but at the "cost" of having to spend much more time and effort on a brewday

Given all of that, we should probably recognise, that when an AG brewer adds simple sugar(s) into his/her recipe, then they're not (always) just trying to keep the price down (at the cost of reduced quality) ... sometimes it's there to provide fermentables that will increase the attenuation levels of the yeast (to dry out the beer), sometimes it's to add darkened (caramelised) sugars that will add extra flavours ... AG brewers don't really need to write "malt derived sugar GOOD, cane/beet derived sugar BAD" on the barn wall

However, if you do review the recipe that you're planning to brew, and decide (for whatever reason) that you don't want the simple sugar involved then instead of replacing the sugar (gram for gram) with DME, replace it in the recipe with the appropriate amount of base malt ... ideally you'd calculate the extra base malt with some recipe calculator but as a rough "rule of thumb", replacing the weight of sugar/DME in the recipe with 1.66 times that of Pale Malt in your grain bill will get you thereabouts

Cheers, PhilB

Thanks Phil -- your post was very graciously received.
My idea was to use dme is to replace the amount of grain volume when at the mashing stage to save space in my tun. I agree with all your advice about sugar as a means to keep costs down. I came into the home brew lark at the start of it being legal when we had to put up with some terrible kits in those days, 1960s (kits requiring 2lb plus of sugar etc) . I began brewing all grain in the 1976s and have brewed that way ever since but I like to use kits for my stout and porter and my favourite Norfolk Nog as I cannot reproduce such ales by all grain alone to my taste. It is these kits that I introduce the dme without a boil. I have made beers throughout the years using sugar in my grain beer boil. It was just a thought to use dme instead of sugar as I had in my mind it could make a brew of a taste of more malt thinking it would be the same idea as grain but keeping the space down. I understand that more grain would be better in the long run. Again thank you Phil

[PhilB]

Hi Ronnie

My idea was to use dme is to replace the amount of grain volume when at the mashing stage to save space in my tun.

... ahhhh, I'm sorry I saw "all grain" in the title and have misunderstood the question ... I realise now you're asking about a partial-mash/mini-mash approach, in which case the question about whether the DME should be boiled remains ... and I'll watch the discussion with interest

Cheers, PhilB

[sandimas]

I don't think you need to boil it, DME is a sterile product and I've made up loads of Extract recipes without boiling it, and they've produced fine beers. Some theories say that having some DME in the boil helps hop extraction, so for Extract brewing I usually put half in at the start of the boil and half at the end. But if you've got wort from a mash and you're using that for the boil, not need to boil the additional DME (IMHO).

I've been thinking the same as you: I only have a small AG setup that can do max 12L brews. I thought that by supplementing it with DME I could do higher-volume brews. It would also be easier to cool as you'd be topping it up with cold water, rather than boiling the full volume. I'm going to try this with one of my future brews.

[rocket ronnie]

I don't think you need to boil it, DME is a sterile product and I've made up loads of Extract recipes without boiling it, and they've produced fine beers. Some theories say that having some DME in the boil helps hop extraction, so for Extract brewing I usually put half in at the start of the boil and half at the end. But if you've got wort from a mash and you're using that for the boil, not need to boil the additional DME (IMHO).

I've been thinking the same as you: I only have a small AG setup that can do max 12L brews. I thought that by supplementing it with DME I could do higher-volume brews. It would also be easier to cool as you'd be topping it up with cold water, rather than boiling the full volume. I'm going to try this with one of my future brews.

Yes that is what I have been doing. But I have been putting well over the odds of the grain bill volume instead of using DME. Then after boiling the wort, top up the finished boil with cold water up to 20 lts of sometimes 25 lts . My idea to use DMS is so that I can use the usual grain bill plus DMS to strengthen it, and thinking that it would make taster brew.

[Kev888]

My idea to use DMS is so that I can use the usual grain bill plus DMS to strengthen it, and thinking that it would make taster brew.

I think you mean DME; DMS is something else and not desirable!

There is a case for some types and amounts of sugar in some recipes, but if you are simply making up for insufficient size of mash then yes malt extract would be better than adding lots of sugar. It will work as is, but if quality is a key aim then personally I would still boil DME to cause the hot break. Another option would be to mash twice - more time consuming but probably cheaper than buying DME.

[rocket ronnie]

My idea to use DMS is so that I can use the usual grain bill plus DMS to strengthen it, and thinking that it would make taster brew.

I think you mean DME; DMS is something else and not desirable!

There is a case for some types and amounts of sugar in some recipes, but if you are simply making up for insufficient size of mash then yes malt extract would be better than adding lots of sugar. It will work as is, but if quality is a key aim then personally I would still boil DME to cause the hot break. Another option would be to mash twice - more time consuming but probably cheaper than buying DME.

Yes thank you for putting me straight I did mean DME not DMS. I remember DMS some years back produced by EDME I believe.