Connecting up a kettle element

[Kev888]

Yes indeed. At least with beer making equipment I'm not at all interested in trying to restrict what people can or can't do, thats up to the individual, but I am keen that they have a full range of views and info when deciding - so that its genuinely their informed choice rather than (say) a nasty surprise.

I'm more on the fence when it comes to stuff like house wiring though; on the one hand as a non 'competent person' I've now got expense and restrictions on doing stuff that I'm quite capable of doing safely and to regulations, but on the other I've discovered some electrical horrors (some really stupid and dangerous) left by previous owners and it would be good to think that wouldn't happen in the future. My suspicion unfortunately is that in general home owners who will abide by part P are the ones who'd do things responsibly anyway, and the ones that need some restraint will largely ignore it. But then I never was an optimist!

Cheers
Kev

[themadhippy]

The other problem is a large majority of home owners arnt aware of part p, and can still get all the bits they need from b+q so the problem of dodgy work is still there,the only people to suffer are as paul mentioned ,the time served sparks who dont do enough domestic work to warrant registration.

[stringy]

aside from the electricity side of things, is it safe to be using pastic fermenting bucket as a boiler? I thought you needed to use specific type of plastic which could withstand the high temperatures? I cant imagine it would be pleasant having 5gallons of boiling wort bursting out the side of the boiler...

[LansonBrewer]

Plastic fermenting buckets are generally made from PP or HDPE. HDPE has a melting point of 130-137 deg. C, PP has a melting point of 160 deg C.
They tend to start going a softer at boiling point, many people (including me) use them - and there are commercially available plastic boilers.
It is best to go for as thick-walled a bin as you can, and try not to dance on it when it's full of boiling wort.

[Hogarth]

... and try not to dance on it when it's full of boiling wort.

Oh come off it. That's health and safety gone mad.

[Kev888]

aside from the electricity side of things, is it safe to be using pastic fermenting bucket as a boiler? I thought you needed to use specific type of plastic which could withstand the high temperatures? I cant imagine it would be pleasant having 5gallons of boiling wort bursting out the side of the boiler...

There are commercial examples of polypropylene boilers with the backer-type elements sparky-paul and myself mentioned higher up, and these have a good track record over the years. PP isn't 'much' affected by boiling water and can be food grade and so a lot of DIY people use these too, although the thinner examples should be avoided as they are still affected 'a bit' by the heat. (an example of one thats supposed to be suitable would be here)

Also popular for DIYers on the forum are HDPE boilers (like the blue mango tubs) which can also be food grade. However HDPE is much more affected by heat so to be used safely under any sort of load at boiling temperatures it has to be much thicker. Personally I'm dubious about it myself because a lot hangs on the specific barrel and they have been known to sag, but there you go - personal choice and all that.

But assuming the plastic barrel is up to it then its fine, and the only real safety issue over metal containers is if they have no overheat/boil-dry safety cutout in the element, as with some DIY examples. If they boil dry (or get emptied whilst still on) without being noticed then the element gets very hot, the boiler bucket melts and the glowing element sinks down into a puddle of molten plastic on whatever surface its sat on. Personally I'm largely happy with PP boilers but I do prefer metal for reasons such as this - especially for my HLT which comes on by timer whilst unattended.

Cheers
kev

[dean_wales]

Well, I as the thread starter am amazed at what has gone on in my abscence! Sorry Jim!

Suffice to say that I soon realised that it was the depth of the recess on the lead that was the isue as stated earlier in the thread. I shaved a few mm's off with a hacksaw and smoothed the end off with a file. It not fits snuggly.

In light of the worries so many people have - I will be attatching the lead permanently so that its not connected/disconnected all the time. The water will go in hot from my burco and this element will only be used intermittently to keep the water at sparge temps of 80c or so.

So dont panic mr mannering. If this frightens you, you dont want to see my dad or his neighbours farm electrics!

Thanks for all the advice though, I appreciate it. Even if I do advocate DIY botches, being a well informed botcher is a must.

Dean.

[leewink]

aside from the electricity side of things, is it safe to be using pastic fermenting bucket as a boiler? I thought you needed to use specific type of plastic which could withstand the high temperatures? I cant imagine it would be pleasant having 5gallons of boiling wort bursting out the side of the boiler...

I refer back to my post earlier in the thread, I used to use a clear type "proper" plastic bucket type boiler sold with an element and lead, I personally wasnt happy that it softened with heat, i dont think there was any risk, but I wasnt easy around it so went stainless from rob at the maltmiller, not that i would but id be happy to pick my stainless up full or knock it about full now, no probs, whereas the plastic TBH I was scared to be near it, only for the fact that what is sugarred water in essence takes far longer to cool than plain old water, and to get a waist load .... hmmm, may spoil lifes pleasentaries shall I say

The only thing i'd suggest is what i'd do myself, sorry for that, but boiling wort and el cheapo doesnt mix to me in any form, if a cable doesnt fit - to me it doesnt fit for reason, its the wrong one, i'll simply order the correct one, or both element and cable to be sure.

You take from a forum what you will, thats the way i look at it, and if your not happy, dont do it, again, i'm the "dont do it type", of course unless a qualified electrician wanted to "adapt" it and legally certify it fit for use, and for its intended purpose.



I can cover holes up in the lid or uncover, controls the boil nicely

[greenxpaddy]

Back to kettle leads if I may...where can I get 2m leads to fit the backer elements - good old fashioned round kettle connections...anyone still sell these? Ta

Damn I got the wrong elements, going to have to send them back and get the newer style elements.

[Dr. Dextrin]

Sorry to be a nerd, but I'm puzzled by the comment in this thread that hot wort takes longer to cool than hot water and I wonder if anyone can point to a factual basis for that statement. There aren't many things with a higher specific heat capacity than water, so if it's true it'd be quite interesting.

Unfortunately, the specific heat of pure sugar (well, sucrose anyway) seems to be well below that of water, so that's not a good start.

The only thing I've been able to find on sugar solutions is this page, which lets you plot a graph of specific heat against Brix degrees for sucrose solutions:

http://www.sugartech.co.za/heatcapacity/index.php

If you select Brix as the axis (in the bottom form) and use 100C and 100% pure sucrose, the graph shows the specific heat falling linearly as the sugar concentration rises. At no time is it higher than 4.2 (the specific heat of pure water).

So if there is any effect with wort (I think it would be small), then it looks like it is actually safer than pure water at the same temperature!

Possibly the confusion arises because sugar solutions tend to boil at above 100C so that concentrated solutions (like toffee) do take a very long time to cool from boiling. However, I think the elevation of the boiling point in normal wort concentrations is quite small (maybe less than 1C) and probably not significant.

[Kev888]

I'd not heard this before, but if the specific heat capacity is lower then (if it really does take longer to cool) that may imply worse/slower heat transfer? Possibly through poorer convection currents in thicker liquid or even intrinsic thermal resistance. Thats pure speculation on my part, though..

Cheers
Kev