Stainless Boiler - 3kW Immersion elements

[steve_flack]

No. They are normal immersion heater elements and are unwired. They do provide a bit of cable which looks like the heat resistant stuff.

[Graham]

AND.. the lack of a IP56 quality housing for the terminal ends In truth both have equal significance. Although I think with some heleman(SP?) sleeving there MAY be a way to get there to offer splash proof protection.

I will offer a tale about how on two occasions I have seen people getting electrocuted WITHOUT tripping the RCD/RCBO. It is quite possible for a person to short between live and neutral and not earth and the only protection will be MCB so until you over draw through the body to trip the MCB, you will be getting one hell of a belt. On both occasions water was involved

Ah! you beat me to it. Yes, I do not think it would be too difficult. Something like heat-shrink sleeving over the internal wiring. A gasket of some sort or silicone sealer around the base of the cover. An O-ring or fibre washer under the cover retaining nut. A cable gland for the cable entry. But there is still the problem of sealing off that ruddy great hole. Keeping it at the bottom, underside, will help, but it is not elegant enough for my liking.

Yep, RCD is no use whatsoever if you get stuck across the mains. Unfortunately, they can give a false sense of security / protection, which in some cases be worse than not having an RCD at all.

[prodigal2]

Ah! you beat me to it. Yes, I do not think it would be too difficult. Something like heat-shrink sleeving over the internal wiring. A gasket of some sort or silicone sealer around the base of the cover. An O-ring or fibre washer under the cover retaining nut. A cable gland for the cable entry. But there is still the problem of sealing off that ruddy great hole. Keeping it at the bottom, underside, will help, but it is not elegant enough for my liking.

I think the problem you face the ability to recommend a CE/UL certified element that can be fitted without opening yourself to a world of potential litigation. The difference between permissible and possible can be quite great .

Has anyone thought of looking into replacement deepfat fryer elements? Just a thought.

The irony of this conversation is that I am a gas user due to a pitiful supply to my house, and yet in my professional life I play with upto a few thousand amps of 3 phase on a temporary basis

[Graham]

even the Electrims and Bruheats were 3kW until the supply of 9/16 elements dried up.

were they not the 2.75 kw elements with the round plugs?

Yes, that is right. 2.75W at 230V, 3kW at 240V. It is just a matter of specification.

9/16 refers to the round plug versions. I dunno what 9/16 means, obviously a measurement of some sort, but I am sure that the hole required is a lot bigger than 9/16".

[Vossy1]

I think the problem you face the ability to recommend a CE/UL certified element that can be fitted without opening yourself to a world of potential litigation. The difference between permissible and possible can be quite great .

I totally agree, but 'suggesting' the safest way to use something that's not being 'used for purpose' has to be better than finding out by trial and error

[johnmac]

Can anyone provide a link to the "right" kind of cable for these elements.

Screwfix sell suitable cable by the meter. PN 16684

But there is still the problem of sealing off that ruddy great hole. Keeping it at the bottom, underside, will help, but it is not elegant enough for my liking.

I'm thinking of heat resistant silicone all around the the shroud and leaving the cable entry at the lowest point. I'm not convinced that total water proofing is possible, so I'm happy to leave a drain hole at the bottom.

[buzzrtbi]

I'm thinking of heat resistant silicone all around the the shroud and leaving the cable entry at the lowest point. I'm not convinced that total water proofing is possible, so I'm happy to leave a drain hole at the bottom.

i was going to use instant gasket- this is designed to get hot !

[Graham]

I think the problem you face the ability to recommend a CE/UL certified element that can be fitted without opening yourself to a world of potential litigation. The difference between permissible and possible can be quite great .

Yes, exactly that. CE certification is a formality as long as the product is competently designed. It is competent design that I am trying to achieve. There is nothing inherently wrong or unsafe about using these elements for our application. A heater is just a heater. They are almost identical in design to standard industrial heaters used in dozens of industrial applications, including micro-breweries.

Vossy in his earlier post has just given me an idea on how to water-proof them, but it'll take a trip to my local DIY place to see if it is practical.

Has anyone thought of looking into replacement deepfat fryer elements? Just a thought.

Good idea, but might be an expensive way of obtaining an element.

...in my professional life I play with upto a few thousand amps of 3 phase on a temporary basis

Yep. Playing with several thousand volts of three-phase, often proves temporary

[prodigal2]

...in my professional life I play with upto a few thousand amps of 3 phase on a temporary basis

Yep. Playing with several thousand volts of three-phase, often proves temporary

Yet again I should proof read before posting I meant amps

The problem is that what works well for the first 10 uses may not be good for the next 2 uses. The other problem is that we can not take other peoples competence for granted. Heck there are 16th edition sparks I have worked with I wouldn't trust to put a plug on

[sparky Paul]

This being a public forum and immersion heaters being easily obtainable I'd like to see some way of what Sparky Paul said being made un-missable

I've bolded the section in my post, but I suspect it will get lost way back as I can see this thread running on a bit.

It's also worth noting that newer domestic immersion heater elements are rated for the full 3KW at 230V.

Talking about terminal covers, I have come across better terminal covers for these elements in industrial applications, with a M20 threaded inlet for CTS glands and a sealing gasket around the edge. However, you will find that these are sold primarily for industrial uses, and are considerably more expensive than the domestic equivalents. Not only that, they do tend to allow a little fluid ingress, especially after a year or two, whilst preventing its escape...

For industrial use, heater elements are also available in smaller 2", 1.75" and 1.25" boss versions, as well as the domestic standard of 2.25", in variety of power outputs. Stainless steel ones are often found in dairy equipment.

Incidentally, the old kettle elements are indeed 1 9/16" OD.

[Graham]

Yet again I should proof read before posting I meant amps

You did say amps - I used volts because it is them that hurt. Your car-battery can supply 200 Amps, but it won't kill you (unless you drink the acid).

A few milliamps is enough to kill if there is enough voltage there to produce it.

The problem is that what works well for the first 10 uses may not be good for the next 2 uses. The other problem is that we can not take other peoples competence for granted. Heck there are 16th edition sparks I have worked with I wouldn't trust to put a plug on

Yes, I agree with you entirely on all of that. I am probably treading too heavily. Trouble is that I want to put something in my books. It is a bit of a cop-out to say buy this from here and buy that from there - no point in the book if that was all it consisted of. Some practical advice will be helpful. Besides, even the home-brew suppliers are small businesses and will be facing the same problems.

You can always tell what chapter I'm working on by what I am arguing about on here. When I start arguing about terminology, you'll know I'm writing the glossary at the back, and the book is nearly finished.

[Graham]

1 9/16" is very close to 40mm (the hole size required for the current 2.4 kw elements), maybe that's it?

Ah! 1-9/16" makes a lot more sense. I missed the 1!

[prodigal2]

The problem is that what works well for the first 10 uses may not be good for the next 2 uses. The other problem is that we can not take other peoples competence for granted. Heck there are 16th edition sparks I have worked with I wouldn't trust to put a plug on

Yes, I agree with you entirely on all of that. I am probably treading too heavily. Trouble is that I want to put something in my books. It is a bit of a cop-out to say buy this from here and buy that from there - no point in the book if that was all it consisted of. Some practical advice will be helpful. Besides, even the home-brew suppliers are small businesses and will be facing the same problems.

Agreed, but you still need to be able to recommend something relatively safe, and fit for purpose.

You can always tell what chapter I'm working on by what I am arguing about on here. When I start arguing about terminology, you'll know I'm writing the glossary at the back, and the book is nearly finished.

Looking forward when you are asking about which page to put Zymurgy on As I know it will be time to put a pre-order in at the book shop

[Graham]

It's also worth noting that newer domestic immersion heater elements are rated for the full 3KW at 230V.

That would be a problem - Bang on 13A @230V rising to about 17.5A @253 Volts. Not acceptable - well no CE mark anyway. I had seen this on one supplier's (rather than manufacturer's) site, but was hoping it was a specification error rather than the truth.

I've used industrial ones before in various previous lives, but they would be too expensive for home brewing - may end up with no choice though.

The only financially practical solution is to adapt a heater from something consumer, otherwise people would be better off buying Burcos. Mind you, the original Burco (Burnley Electrical Co), went bust a few years ago, and were bought up and are now made by somebody else; it could happen again.

If it gets any worse we'll be back to galvanised tin-baths on the gas stove.

[Graham]

Looking forward when you are asking about which page to put Zymurgy on As I know it will be time to put a pre-order in at the book shop

In "Home Brewing", the final entry in the glossary is:
Zythum: Last word on beer.

That is a cryptic reference to it being the last word in the book, and also the last word in the Chamber's dictionary (as every cross-word enthusiast knows).

In the next edition I will re-define it as "Last word in Home Brewing", and if I remember to index the word "Zythum", it genuinely will be the last word in "Home Brewing". Tee Hee!