Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

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yashicamat
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Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by yashicamat » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:14 pm

crookedeyeboy wrote:Ive just got my hands on a nice 9 gallon plastic keg, will hopefully up my boiler size and get it filled to see how the beer sits in it. I dont think there should be any issue with keeping it in there for a fee months.. surely if the cask and beer are both 'clean' the beer will last for ages, its only the same as it being in a sealed bottle of corny..

Anyway i shall give it a go and see how quick i can get through 72 pints! :shock:
As soon as you start drawing off the beer, air will be drawn into the cask and despite theories about a blanket of CO2 sitting on top of the beer, the beer will start to oxidise. As I have discovered (and as many on here will already know I expect), the oxidation process actually improves the beer for the first few days, then it peaks and starts to slowly decline. I assume this is what you were referring to with the comment about a clean cask and beer? :)

Of course, there is a balance to be achieved here; a weaker beer will last less time, but will require drinking more quickly, whenas a stronger beer would last longer but you'll probably end up having to drink as much alcohol per day to drink the beer up before it starts to "go off". Perhaps there is a direct correlation (rather than an imperical one) between beer longevity and cask life? :lol:
Rob

POTTER BREWERY (mothballed 2020)

Fermenting: nowt (sadly). Drinking: still a few bottles of my imperial stout knocking about . . . it's rather good now

haz66

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by haz66 » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:52 pm

Billybrewster wrote:Good info, thanks =D>

Does anyone know if a PIN (4.5gal) cask, plastic or SS, would work on a cask tilter :?:
There is absolutely no reason why it would`nt given that they work on weight.

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Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by yashicamat » Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:18 am

haz66 wrote:
Billybrewster wrote:Good info, thanks =D>

Does anyone know if a PIN (4.5gal) cask, plastic or SS, would work on a cask tilter :?:
There is absolutely no reason why it would`nt given that they work on weight.
I'm fairly certain that they're designed to work with auto-stillages as they are commercial casks that homebrewers can use, rather than specifically homebrew casks.
Rob

POTTER BREWERY (mothballed 2020)

Fermenting: nowt (sadly). Drinking: still a few bottles of my imperial stout knocking about . . . it's rather good now

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Aleman
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Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Aleman » Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:51 pm

The plastic kegs are not reliable on autostillages from what I have heard . . . Stainless ones are no problem however as they are heavier

crookedeyeboy

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by crookedeyeboy » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:29 pm

Is there a way of attaching a gas cylinder to a 9? IE attaching the JG fitting to something on top of the cask where the shive goes so that it would pressurise it and condition much the same way you do in a Corny?

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Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by OldSpeckledBadger » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:22 pm

crookedeyeboy wrote:Is there a way of attaching a gas cylinder to a 9? IE attaching the JG fitting to something on top of the cask where the shive goes so that it would pressurise it and condition much the same way you do in a Corny?
The pressure which the barrel can stand is probably too low for forced conditioning but as it's draught beer you'd want to condition it naturally wouldn't you?
Best wishes

OldSpeckledBadger

haz66

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by haz66 » Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:23 pm

yashicamat wrote:
haz66 wrote:
Billybrewster wrote:Good info, thanks =D>

Does anyone know if a PIN (4.5gal) cask, plastic or SS, would work on a cask tilter :?:
There is absolutely no reason why it would`nt given that they work on weight.
I'm fairly certain that they're designed to work with auto-stillages as they are commercial casks that homebrewers can use, rather than specifically homebrew casks.
I`ve seen plastic ones used on auto-stillages at every beer fest i`ve been to, maybe they have different ones for plastic kegs ?

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Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by yashicamat » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:12 pm

OldSpeckledBadger wrote:
crookedeyeboy wrote:Is there a way of attaching a gas cylinder to a 9? IE attaching the JG fitting to something on top of the cask where the shive goes so that it would pressurise it and condition much the same way you do in a Corny?
The pressure which the barrel can stand is probably too low for forced conditioning but as it's draught beer you'd want to condition it naturally wouldn't you?
This was my original point behind using casks; I found the artificial carbonation from a CO2 cylinder made for a lower quality beer. You could use a poppet valve on them to feed CO2 (although I'd be very careful as the plastic isn't as strong as a SS cask so the hole might be under too much stress, plus the plastic is undoubtably thicker too so a poppet valve might not even fit) but the casks have a low working pressure (under 10psi, I think it's either 7psi or 9 psi).
Rob

POTTER BREWERY (mothballed 2020)

Fermenting: nowt (sadly). Drinking: still a few bottles of my imperial stout knocking about . . . it's rather good now

Scooby

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Scooby » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:30 am

Jeez, so we come full circle with talk of pressurising them :roll:

You could have saved all the expense of a cornie setup, plastic pressures barrels and plastic casks in your search for a 'well conditioned' pint by using a good quality Bag in a box. Even has a Vitop connector for beer engine use. 10 bags, 3 connectors for around £30. If you dump the bag after use it's only 5p a pint. They have many advantages over the plastic casks and the beer will be every bit a good with none of the drawbacks of oxidisation.

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Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Aleman » Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:37 pm

The simple answer is that you can get a hollow spile to use with a cask aspirator (Some cask aspirators have it built in . . . I'm not convinced about using one like that though). . . . . but this is not for force carbonation . . . it simply keeps blanket pressure over the beer, and supplies CO2 as the beer is drawn out.

Manx Guy

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Manx Guy » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:26 pm

Scooby

Do you use a beer engine with polypins/ bags in boxes?
Would you mind sharing more detials about your set-up?

This is something that appeals to me... :)

Guy
8)

Scooby

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Scooby » Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:07 pm

I think most would agree that daily use of a hand pump is non starter due to wastage, I've used the cornie/demand valve set up and came to that conclusion for the sort of use I would give it. But there is something about a hand pulled pint that appeals to most of us and for the occasional use a poly pin is ideal imo.

I looked at other methods and settled on the poly pins after reading about Jim's and others experience with them. You can condition the beer in them but I mostly just rack from the cornie squash the air out and seal. Just connect to the beer engine and away you go.

You still get the wastage in the pump and line but the advantages are many.

No air gets in as the bag just collapses so no messing with check valves or breathers, There's a choice of sizes to suit most occasions. The small ones easily fit in the fridge or cool box to cool. They're cheap and easy to set up.

Mattypower

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Mattypower » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:27 pm

Cask conditioned beer must be set up in its serving position and then left undisturbed until the cask is empty. Support the cask on three points only, two at the front and one at the rear. A permanent storage system, known as the stillage (also known as the stillion, horsing, or thrawlls, and in Scotland as the gauntry) can be constructed by laying two horizontal beams and by fixing onto the rear beam cut-out circular blocks with a radius less than that of the cask, so that the cask is tilted forwards towards the tap. Put the cask onto the stillage the moment the beer is racked into the cask.

Once the primary fermentation has been completed, the beer is racked to the cask. Traditionally this is done when the beer is two degrees above its final gravity. There should be sufficient residual sugars in the beer to allow secondary fermentation to occur. However, many brewers add priming sugar when the beer is racked to the cask. Dry hops and finings (approximately 1 pint of isinglass per 9 gallons of beer) are also added at this stage. The cask is now closed with the shive and left for several days before venting (spiling). To vent the cask the centre of the shive must be driven into the cask. The simplest tool to do this is a hardened steel punch. Punch through the knockout section and immediately insert the soft spile. Spiling can be spectacular, if pressure has built up hops and beer can spray up in fountain. In practice little beer is lost despite how it looks. The spile must be checked every day to ensure that it is not blocked with hops or saturated with yeast. The beer should now be allowed to mature and come into condition. The time required is highly variable ranging from several months for strong ales and barley wines to less than a week for low gravity beers such as milds and light bitters. As soon as evolution of gas from the cask has ceased, the soft spile must be replaced with a hard spile.

A word of explanation is needed here. This system evolved way before the invention of pressure regulators. Secondary fermentation of the beer in a closed cask ensures that the beer becomes completely saturated with CO2. The soft spile is made of porous wood and can allow exchange of gases between the cask and the outside world. At this point the beer is still evolving CO2 so no air enters the cask. The soft spile serves to ensure that the beer does not become overcarbonated. Once CO2 evolution has ceased air could enter the cask so at this point the soft spile is replaced with the hard spile. The whole system serves to ensure that the beer achieves perfect condition. This is defined as the situation in which the beer contains 1 volume of CO2 per volume of beer (ie. the partial pressure of the CO2 in the beer is 1 atmosphere).

Insertion of a tap (tapping the cask) can be done at several points, either when the cask is spiled, a day or so before use, or just before it is required. There is no particular advantage to one time point over another. To tap the cask, first remove the spile, then drive the tap through the centre of the keystone using the heaviest mallet you can find (at least 1 pound in weight - never use a metal hammer, it will damage the tap). Some cellar keepers leave the tap partly open whilst driving it through the keystone. Ostensibly this ensures that air is not driven into the cask, but it is questionable whether this is of benefit. Some sediment will deposit itself in the tap, so the first 1/3 pint or so will be cloudy and must be discarded. The beer lines (if used) may now be attached to the tap and the spile must be re-inserted. Occassionally it may be necessary to replace the tap on a full cask, usually the cause is a leaking tap. This isn't the disaster it may appear. First insert the hard spile into the cask, this produces an air lock so that little beer will escape the cask. Gently rock the tap whilst holding it into the keystone. You will feel the tap coming loose. Hold the tap in the keystone, take a cork bung and hold it next to the keystone. Pull the tap out and quickly insert the cork bung. Drive the replacement tap through the corked keystone in the usual manner.

When beer is served the hard spile must be completely removed from the cask to allow air to enter the cask replacing beer which has been drawn off. If the spile is left in, the beer will not be able to be pumped. Replace the spile when the cask is not in use. After a cask is vented and entered into service air will enter the cask causing oxidation of the beer, and dissolved carbon dioxide will be lost through the exposed surface of the beer. Good cellar practices will minimise these effects, but it should be remembered that the effects are part of the traditional profile of real ale.

Finings are normally added when the beer is racked to the cask. Sometimes, if the beer will not drop bright, it may be necessary to re-fine. The complete shive must be removed with a de-shiving tool. Pour in the finings and insert a new shive. Roll the cask vigorously to mix the beer with the finings. Re-spile the cask immediately. The finings initially flocculate into loose lumps which gradually accumulate into bands alternating with bright beer. These bands then move to the top or bottom of the beer (the top break and the bottom break). Occassionally you will get banding or layering in which the sediment will accumulate in the middle of the beer. Beer above and below the band will be perfectly bright. Nothing can be done about this, the cloudy beer must be drawn off and discarded.

The temperature of the beer is an important aspect of real ale. The cellar should be maintained at 13-14 C (55-57 F). The temperature affects the condition of the beer and also the clarity since isinglass finings are rendered useless at high temperatures. Too warm and the beer will be flat, too cold and it will be over gassy. Real ale in perfect condition contains one volume of carbon dioxide per volume of beer. Top-pressure is often employed by homebrewer, this is the application of carbon dioxide at relatively high pressure into the beer. This makes cask beer greatly over conditioned. The resulting beer cannot be considered to be real ale. Blanket pressure may be applied to real ale if the turnover of the beer is low. In this system a demand valve allows carbon dioxide to be drawn into the cask as beer is drawn off, and thus air never enters. A secondary relief valve must be included to automatically vent a build up of pressure (above 1 atmosphere). There is a rift in the real ale world as to whether beer served under blanket pressure can be described as real ale, but in practice it can allow homebrewers to enjoy real ale without having to worry about spoilage of their beer.

Mattypower

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Mattypower » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:29 pm

Not my words just thought it was quite interesting!

Scooby

Re: Pub casks at home: my thoughts so far

Post by Scooby » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:27 pm

And there was me thinking you were 'Cellarman of the Year' ..............1910 :lol:

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