underfloor heating/tower rail heated FV cupboard

[newtonsshed]

Hi.

I started off trying to design a "simple" FV cupboard, whilst doing so I had an and wondered if anyone has made something simalar to an under floor heating or radiator heater system for their cupboards?
Imagine a MAXI 310 but instead of cold ice box a heating element with hot water flowing into either morcobore copper tubing or tower rail/radiator.

I'm thinking of using a spare elecrim boiler,(maybe a mechanical valve) and pump. The plan would be to have a tank connector in the boiler going to a short peice of copper tubing then to a mechnical valve ( if needed as to open the flow from boiler to the pipes, I guess the valve not really needed as flow wouldn't circulate if pump not on?) and then to solor project pump inflow. On the outflow of the pump, more copper tubing either going to micro bore tubing on the floor sides and even top of the FV cupboard or feed into a tower rail and then have the other end of the copper tube feed back to the boiler. Apart from the cost of a lot of copper, mechanical valve and pump, the issue of the radiator/underfloor heating holding heat and slow at responding if over hot, how good of a heating system would this be?

Also would you need two tempreture controls? One to switch on the mechanical valve and pump to recirculate the hot water in the boiler through and one to control the actual tempreture of the boiler or could you do it from the one controller which switches on the heating element in the boiler as well as the mechanical valve and pump or even just set the thermostat at a pre set tempreture so the heating element only ciomes on once the temp in the boiler starts to reduce?
what would the running costs be/how efficient would it be to keep say 25L of water hot enough to provide the same power as a 60w tube heater and what temp would the water in the boiler need be maintained at?

[Matt12398]

Have you thought about cooling as well or are you just concerned with heating. My house is only usually below 18 degrees for a small part of the year so have you thought about where you brew for the rest of the year?

[newtonsshed]

All the brewing/fermenting/conditioning and possibly serving to be done in a 10x6ft wooden shed. Currently the shed needs windows replacing and roof refelting no plans to insulate the whole of the shed just the cupboard.

For cooling and this is where the idea came from I have a redundant Maxi 310 which I plan to coil tubing around the outside of the fvs. In fact thinking about it maybe I could T into the same python or 3/8 tubing with the maxi pumping the cold and then the boiler pumping the hot as and when needed the return maybe an issue if hot water is being fed back into the chiller maxi maybe need diverter valve/mixer so it's neutral. I also like the idea if on brew day the heated water needs a boost could use the outflo of the plate chiller to top up or spare water from the boiler

[Kev888]

Usually its more convenient for our FV heating purposes to use a simple electrical device (or devices) quite directly - tube heaters, heating belts and mats, aquarium heaters etc and I've seen under floor electric heating in larger builds too. These don't need the complexity of pipes and mechanical pumps and valves etc. so are easier and cheaper to install and maintain and also reliable in use. Its a bit different for cooling because small simple electric coolers are far less compact or efficient so its often of benefit to have a rather less compact mechanical one pumping coolant to where its wanted. Also, cooling devices don't generate cold as such, they normally instead have to move the heat out/away, so again theres a reason for more complexity.

However, its mostly about ease and cost - you 'could' use a water recirculating system for either or both heating and cooling if there was a reason to - it could make sense in some cases (like having a water-jacketed fermenter). Though factor in the costs of valves and things, as its still more common for homebrewers to use an electrical heater of some sort even if they also have a cooling coil. The heater types best for the job don't need to use air to heat the FV, as air is poor at conducting the heat, and a warm water recirculating coil would at least have that advantage if it were in or around the FV rather than heating air with a radiator. That said though, if efficiency isn't an issue you can just make sure the general environment is always too warm without any particular accuracy, 'provided' that you have a means of directly cooling the FV and are controlling that well.

The beer cooler approach uses two sensors; one (normally built in) regulates the temperature of the cold reservoir, and a second regulates the temperature of the FV by choosing when to recirculate the cool water. You could do the same (in reverse) for a warm water setup if there was a good reason. There would be ways to do it with one sensor but it would be harder to balance; for example if the FV was too cold and the sensor/thermostat called for heat, your heater could be boiling the reservoir away before the FV finally reached temperature. Depending on how big your reservoir(s) were it could also be slower to respond if there wasn't a second regulator holding the reservoir(s) already at the temperature you want. But the thermostat for the reservoirs need not be especially sophisticated; its the FV that needs to be well controlled.

Cheers
Kev

[newtonsshed]

Cheers Kev, as I say just an idea I think I'll stiuck with atube heater in a rectangler insulated FV cupboard with the Maxi 310 to cool or take heat away from fvs if needed of I get ound to it I think my main issue is going to be keeping warm even in summer I plan to brew mainly english and european beers.

What would be the best way to maximise the cooling side of a beer line chiller for mutiple fv's and conditioning tanks - not planning as many as what you have though (hows the enormarator going anyway?)

[Kev888]

Probably the best way to maximise cooling is to have coils immersed in the FV and have the tanks well insulated from the outside world. But it may be more convenient and easier for sanitation to have a cooling jacket or coil around them, again with insulation over the top. You don't normally want to shock the yeast by sudden temperature plunges so people seem to get away with quite modest coils.

However if you have a number of tanks in one cupbopard theres a trade-off to make. If you just cooled say the cupboard's air with a fridge then you obviously can't control them all at separate/different temperatures (for different yeasts or stages of fermention or crash cooling etc), however its a simple approach that only needs one thermostat and they'll all settle to 'roughly' the same temperature apart from self-heating. Conversely, if you cool them directly with individual coils and thermostats (or PIDs) you can have them doing completely different things if you like, but you really 'need' to control them individually even if you want them the same temperature - certainly if they aren't all identical - as if you just measure the wort/beer in one then there's no knowing what its friends are doing; that costs in multiple thermoststs, valves or pumps and complexity.

I'm still using a big FV cupboard, though I too will be moving to a beer-cooler this year. The enormorator sady is no more as the fridge gave up, so I got a lader fridge instead that can keep 6 cornies cool

Cheers
kev

[newtonsshed]

Very roughly how much temp diufference is there between conditioning temp and fermenting temp?

As it's colder in the shed then the house, I am (I think) more concerned with the heating side, so for this I plan, to use a standard tube heater coupled to an ATC 800+ and maybe fan to circulate. Im tempted to leave it at that, so I at least I know its warm enough to allow fermentation. I llike fruit profile/easteries anyway (Flowers IPA springs to mind) so may serve me well if slightly on high side with the right yeast. Having said that I want keep options open as well and again I'm sure, as it won't have that much insulation (using standard loft role stuff) that heat may be vented /lost quite rapidly once heater is off anyway but for the extra piece of mind, I could rig the maxi up. As on a budget I would look to use the beer cooler to help cool the air temp of the whole cupboard, rather than individual coils round each fv wired independantly as I say still an improvement on old ways.

Whilst I was out in the freezing garden fixing the fence to stop the dog jumping over it, I had a look at the half finished brewery build and looked at space for an fv cupboard. I plan to use the side, floor and underneath of a worktop as the outside skin then a layer of insulation rockwall loft rolls foil/damp proof backing and then board the "inside which leaves one side and front to "build" I think it will hold max 5X 25l fv buckets (or combination of fvs and king kegs) 2 or 3 cornies some bottles and if/when get them 8 mini kegs. I'm looking to brew 9g from the keggle but will split down to 2 brews with different yeast and or hops maybe but not got a bigger fv currently anyway. So from 1st brew I will have 2 fvs then rack these to one king keg and condition and refill 2 fvs and rack these oto cornines start drinking keg ect. If it ever happens I could always extend the cupboard as well as I used about half the space under the kitchen work top leaving the other half for storage.

As I say, as the whole process is going to be done in the shed, having even a basic heated fv cupboard has got to be "better" and more consistant then my current method of fermenting 25l in the not always heated conservatory with heating bely just constanmtly plugged in and coats wrapped round the outside, if feels too warm then I manually switch the belt off, then transfer to a corni warm condition for a week and then move to a pantry. At the moment as I don't brew frequently, I've ran out of gas, besides the Mrs won't let me set the regulator and big c02 bottle up near the house anyway and the widget world bottle is empty, last I looked, the brew shops were changing suppliers or something and any old ww bottles were going at a stupid price. So the beer was a bit hit and miss wheather it leaked any natural c02, I understand you need some inital pressure to seal the cornies. To get natural condition I found I needed to keep them warmer then cellar tempreture to compensate for no c02 as I drink them reletively quick (2 weeks as I don't have a regular quantity it's not an issue , when I have some its a novilty and obviously I would slow down drinking if on a constant supply flooding techneque if you will lol)

[Kev888]

For ale yeasts you normally want to ferment at around say 19c or so, give or take a few degrees - they all have their slightly different characteristics and as you say it depends on your preference for esters etc. There is some self-heating during the fermentation, so if you want to keep things consistent throughout the seasons you'll want cooling somewhat lower than the the desired fermentation temperature. You may not need that with the right environment, but nowhere in my own house stays that cool in summer and the garage and shed get very hot in the daytime - even with vaguely insulated roofs they're ridiculously hot.

Crash cooling (to help yeast/sediment drop out after primary fermentation subsides) is ideally around 0C if your setup will reach it, but any cooling helps. If you prime then back up again - something more like the fermenting temperatures is better/quicker. Then the cellar temperature is commonly around 12c for traditional British ales - though it depends on personal preference and style; I don't like my stout as cool as my wheat beer for example, so its a compromise.

(Thats for ale yeast, true lager yeasts have a different category of requirements - usually cooler)

Cheers
kev

[newtonsshed]

How do the beer chillers work anyway? Do they have their own pump that either recirculate around themselves passing over a cooler which then creates an ice bank? How/when does the cold water circulate round the "product lines" ie the python tubing to keep the beer cold when pulled through on a hand pump? Under normal condition in a pub/cellar set up how do they work? (having seen the other thread "controlling FV temp with solenoid" and a bit of googling and reading other related posts I'm even more confused!)

Whilst its good to know the temp difference between yeast working temp and conditioning temps thinking about it, it doesn't actually help, as I have no idea of what the ambient tempreture would need to be to get the liquid temp right. I guess I also need to understand what it is I am wanting to do -
I guess the idea was to use the maxi as close to the standard model of a a fridge with the tube heater. The only reason why I thought of using the maxi is because I have one and it fits better then a chest/freezer or even under countre fridge or freezer. What's the easiest way to use the maxi for this purpose - I don't really want to stand the plastic bucket fvs with taps in a water bath as one not got the height clearance and 2 seems perfect breading grounds for bacteria as I normally primary ferment open top.

At this stage whilst I might not get the full benefit from having multiple product lines, enabling chilling of fv independantly I'd settle to have a fv cupboard to accurately hold fv temp so the fermenting wort is in the ideal range ie 19-21. Once it's all set up and running, if I wanted to I could then look to extend the cupboard and have two compartments next to each other, one for fv and one for conditioning/cellar temp, using the maxi to cool the 2 independantly if/when needed. Also as I currently have no gas and natural conditioning (ie I don't force carb) I find it better to keep beer slightly warmer to aid the condition and keep the seal on the cornies (not that this ever works usually leaks out somewhere)

[Kev888]

Beer coolers work like a fridge or freezer, same sort of compressor and so on, except instead of cooling the air with a big plate or something, they cool a liquid bath via a coil in/around it - they're like a very small chest freezer filled with water. Stainless coils sit in that cold bath, and you suck/push the beer through them on route to your tap. Coolers that also have recirculation facilities do have a pumped output as well, it pumps the cooled water - normally through pipes next to the beer lines but you can instead send it through water jackets or cooling coils on/in the fermenter.

I've never seen a beer cooler turned into an air cooler myself; I'm sure it could be done but they are normally used in homebrewing fermenter setups purposely to avoid having to use the air, which is a pretty poor conductor of heat. I guess also they're noisier and usually more expensive than used fridges, which cool air by default.

In an air cooled setup then given time your kegs etc will become more or less the same temperature as the air around them, except that fermenting beer will be 'slightly' warmer because it generates some heat. Therefore theres a question about whether its best to measure the fermenting wort or the air with your sensor. Measuring the wort means that you control it more closely but your cooler or heater could be getting stressed or overheating (because the wort with your sensor in is so slow to respond to them), whilst measuring the air better monitors the heating/cooling devices that are actually being controlled, but it won't automatically compensate for self-heating of the wort. If you have more than one vessel in the same air cooled cupboard though, individual control of them all is going to be out of the question - so in that setup I'd suggest making sure the air is kept about right and perhaps compromise by setting it a degree or so cooler if theres a fermentation going on.

Cheers
kev

[newtonsshed]

Just been out again to the sheds ...freezing... anyway had a look at the chiller it's a maxi 300. I'm currently googling to see if it has a in built pump or not. I was hoping if it did, I could simply "plug in" to the cold side of the ATc800 and have some python tubing going into the fv cupbaord. So if tempreture started to rise, the tube heater would switch off and the cold water would start recirculating round the piping in the cupboard to bring the ambient tempreture down. To help to conduct the heat transfer maybe plumb the python tube into 22mm copper pipe for bigger surface area.
If the maxi 300 doesn't have a pump already in it, again I was hoping to just plumb a solar project pump into it and also plug this into the cold side of the temp controller, so the cooler and pump would switch on to coo if neededl. Granted there would always be water in the piping which may start to heat up in the cupboard, reducing efficiency and could warm the cold water up. Hence why I started to look at ways to have almost like a rims system heating/cooling water that goes round the cupboard as and when needed, but wasn't sure how to seperate the flows through the same piping.

Also just measured the actual planned size of the cupboard it's approx 100cm long 65cm wide abd 90cm heigh and holds 2 or 3 cornies and 4 or 6 25l buckets 2 wide and 3 long depending how long I decide to go but it it is quite tight space sqeeze to get them all in not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

With the fermententing wort, am I right in thinking the increased heat is affected by mass/volume ie the bigger the fermentor greater the effect? As the fvs are only 25l I'm hoping it won't be too much of an issue, at the most 2X 25l fermenting wort together in the cupboard with two cornies or one kk?

[Kev888]

With the fermententing wort, am I right in thinking the increased heat is affected by mass/volume ie the bigger the fermentor greater the effect? As the fvs are only 25l I'm hoping it won't be too much of an issue, at the most 2X 25l fermenting wort together in the cupboard with two cornies or one kk?

Yes, commercial sized batches produce much more heat in relation to their fermenter's surface area, and often ferment at a higher rate too, both of which cause a bigger rise in temperature. But for our small batches we're normally talking only small increases in temperature - it depends on many things but usually in the ball park of a couple of degrees C give or take.

Cheers
Kev

[stevetk189]

Bear in mind with underfloor heating you'll have a large volume of "warm" floor to loose temperature when the cooling kicks in. It'll make the cooler work harder and then, once it's cold, it's (the floor) going to retain that cool and take longer to warm up.

[Kev888]

Yes, very good point. Its probably best used to make a stable temperature - either at/around fermentation temperature in colder environments, or to ensure a warmer environment than needed if you have fine control for direct cooling of the FV.

Cheers
kev