how much for a keg of beer?

[newtonsshed]

Hi all.

I'm at the very early stages of investigating how viable it is to set up a small commercial mirco brewery part time whiolst still working full time.

How much "profit" is in it? Obviously there be start up costs of getting the right size eqyuipment and depending on batch size, I understand as a minimum need say 100l brew length which would fill 2 firkins of normal strenght 4 or 5% ABV. Am I right in thinking you'd get about £165 -£200 per firkin? If brewed twice or three times a week giving 6 firkins a week at £165 per firkin = £990.

To make the beer would need ingredients say £150 for the 6 firkins. Leaving £840 then duty and all the rest of it how much be left roughly?

Thanks
Andy

[jonnyt]

I think £80 to £85 not £165 is in the right ball park

[subsub]

Jonnyt is in the correct ballpark. 165-200 you're living in dream land m8

[Patterd Ale]

Perhaps you shouldn't?!

It ain't that rosy.

[JABB]

The beer I sell for a commercial small brewery goes out at £65 plus VAT. I know the pub where I go pays between £70 - £90 a keg. You won't sell any at that money.
Most pubs want the bits too, with a good quality pump clip in that price.
Sorry!

[greenxpaddy]

You can't make money at that brew length, if you factor n your labour.

I can brew 2 barrels if I want and it works out at about £10 per hour earnings after costs if it all goes out as casks. It's not glamorous and once you factor in equipment costs it will take you years to get your money back.

That's the negatives, but if you love creating beer £10/ hr and some perks is great....and it could lead to a bigger business.

[boingy]

Top marks for enthusiasm and ambition but zero marks for your business plan thus far. And even if the money worked out, brewing and distributing commercially 2 or 3 times per week whilst holding down a full time job is not very viable...

Assume £60 to £70 per cask and allow for 10% to 20% wastage.
Read this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Microbrewers-Ha ... 0956268161

and this:

http://pbcbreweryinstallations.com/

[newtonsshed]

Thanks, it,s more just out of interest how much profit there is in a typical ferkins. As I say I haven,t done any work yet in terms of business plans, research or anything. My starting point was simply to see costs v profit as I'm under no illisions that its not a quick win easy or even viable at least on small scale. I know its obviously also dependant on having distribution outlets ie have a buyer and costs to get to the buyer etc. If I were to go any further I'd start small using what I currently have which is 10 gallon enough to fill 2 firkins and say to produce those is £50 on £60 per ferkin leaves say £60 before duty andanything else before investing any capital. Since some people started this way and are members I'd thought d just ask the questtion
o

[darkonnis]

If I could throw in some advice?

The absolute minimum size kit you want is 1.5 - 2 X the brew length you want. Otherwise if you get demand, you are increasing the days per week your brew, not simply a few more hours on brew day.

If you build the gear yourself you could save a few bob

Realistically speaking, if you wanted to do this as an on the side project WHILE you work full time. You need to cut your brew days down to 1 day a week and be prepared for one long hard day, otherwise i just dont see where you'd find time. You'd probably still have to prep the casks/ferkins the day before so you can just empty the fermenters into them before starting the next brew off and cleaning the FV's while it mashes/boils. I think, it would suck the joy out of it if I'm honest but it might be worthwhile if you'd eventually consider leaving your job and brewing full time.

Of course, there is no hard and fast rule as to how you have to do anything but i don't envy a man doing a 40 - 48 hours a week then trying to take on a job which will require atleast 16 hours and thats provided everything goes brilliantly and theres no hickups. Good luck though if you decide to.

Out of interest how big is your current set up?

Cooky

[newtonsshed]

At the minuet the current brew length is 9 gallon from converted kegs I'd would brew on higher abv than the final as would water down, to fill one firkin taking into account the angels share, to start with at least. I'd like to upgrade to bigger brew length but I currently don't have a reason too. In a way it was to justify the desire to go bigger, I know what you mean about sucking the joy out of it on the same token though if on the upside I get to brew bigger length, have my beer (not that I'm claiming my beer is any good) served on tap in a pub and I get a bit of extra cash from it and give me something worthwhile to do in eves and weekend and if/when time is right go part than full time, also as start in spare time no pressure to make a living from it. The local pub occasional has some beer in from a home brewer that does it in his spare time. As I say I haven't done any research in to it, my main concern would be the licensing as there seems to be some mixed opinion of once being registered you'd have to pay duty on beer made for home consumption whereas some say can brew for research purpose. Then the next concern would be a supplier & consistancy

[jamesb]

Cheers! I haven't laughed this much in ages.

[Martin G]

Well, you post on here to get other views and thoughts, so here's my honest view. By the sound of it you like the idea of sharing your brew, but at the minute your kit is only big enough to fill a pin and some bottles with good quality beer (really not sure about your water it down plan). If you remain a hobbyist and register with HMRC then you can share your beer and MAYBE offset some of the costs of your hobby, that's a pretty good place to be and does not carry the bagage of planning, water, waste, business rates etc. For me that's as far as it goes, I'm registered but with no intention of going commercial. I will admit having had the odd dream, but have come to realise I would need to win the lottery to make my dream come true. You have to admire people that take the risk and then make it commercially they must be very skilled in tax, accountancy, marketing, sales, purchasing, planning, logistics and delivery, oh yes and they must be fine consistent brewers with all the care and attention that requires. If you can honestly say to yourself that you've got all that nailed and you have a watertight business plan, then go for it, if you can't then you either have to build those skills and plans or change your objectives.

[nigelsch]

Martin,

That makes an intertesting & objective read. You mention that you are registered with HMRC & yet havn't gone commercial,
there is obviously a reason there - just interested in why you register; what do you do up & above a hobbist?

Nige

[Martin G]

I am in Round Table and we have started holding a beer festival at our local British Legion. I wanted to be able to donate a cask of my beer. Another local Round Table have a beer festival as well and the organiser has asked for a cask, and I want to do a crate for a school auction (inspired by the wooden crate thread). The Legion have shown an interest and I may do a cask for them now and then, but will ask for something towards the ingredients and duty. A local cricket club have also asked for a cask in July and again, I'll ask for a bit towards it.

That sort of thing really.

[Matt12398]

I was lucky enough to speak to Jean-Marie Rock from Orval (absolute legend) and Stuart Howe who is the head brewer at Sharps last weekend and was dicussing craft brewing with them. They could not emphasise enough how important education is in becoming a good and successful brewer. There are some really good craft brewers who have learned during many years of home brewing experience how to brew great beer but there are also lots of bad ones as well. Brewing is an art but it is fundamentally underpinned by an excellent grasp of the science behind the processes. If you're really serious about it, consider a formal education in brewing science or buy a whole load of books.