chlorine and chloramine.

[Martin G]

Yep, I wouldn't bother boiling for an hour before brewing either. I was just wondering if the boil during brewing was at the right time to remove the issue or if it is too late by then. Obviously the heating of the water before the mash will reduce it to some extent, but what is an ok level? I read one article that said chlorophenolics and other chlorinated byproducts are reduced by 98% with chloroamines compared with chlorine, but it didn't explain any further so not sure why that would be the case.

[stevetk189]

Unless your tapwater smells like the local swimming baths i wouldn't worry unduly. Carbon filter or campden ok if you really want to but I used to use an overnight rest of well splashed water to brew with. Never had an issue. Personally I think, as i have read many a time, that any chlorine/bleachy smells in the finished product are down to poorly rinsed equipment.

[mabrungard]

Oh my! A lot of disturbing mis-information in this thread. Fortunately a few posts do try and correct it. I'm very disturbed with an early message saying that Graham Wheeler says that there isn't enough chlorine in your drinking water to impart off flavors in beer. I'm hoping that this is a mis-quote, or I'm afraid that I'll have to question Mr. Wheeler's authority.

In the US, all water systems serving over 25 individuals are required to have a disinfectant residual in the water distribution system. I'm betting that the UK has similar requirements. Depending upon the local water quality, the water company might use a variety of disinfectants. Chlorine is the cheapest and is highly effective, but it can produce carcinogens in conjunction with some water constituents. Chlorine is also quite volatile and most water users can notice if it is in their water supply. That volatility also makes it easier to get it to leave the water. Chloramine is another option and its useful for waters that would produce carcinogens when dosed with chlorine. Chloramine is simply the combination of chlorine and ammonia to produce a 'stabilized' chlorine compound. Its less volatile (so the user is less likely to notice its odor) and its a less effective sanitizer than chlorine (so the dosing may need to be higher). Both of these factors mean trouble for brewers. More chlorinated compound may be in the water and it can't be volatilized out of the water as easily.

So just because you can't smell a disinfectant, doesn't mean that its not present. The final consideration is that chlorophenols are created INSTANTLY upon contact of wort compounds and chlorinated compounds and some tasters can detect them at 10 ppb and all tasters will taste them at 30 ppb. Considering that chlorophenols are created on a one to one basis from chlorine compounds, it should take only a moment to realize that since typical water supplies will have 1 to 3 ppm chlorinated disinfectant in them, that the typical water could easily have 100 times more chlorinated disinfectant in them to produce easily detectable chlorophenol.

Those of you that are content in knowing that your water utility uses chlorine for disinfection should not be too smug with not having chloramines. In agricultural areas, urea and ammonia can be a common contaminant in groundwater and surface water. When that water is chlorinated, it too will form a small quantity of chloramine. As noted above, it doesn't take much chlorinated compound to create perceptible chlorophenols in beer. Do be aware. Chlorine is easily detected with a Free Chlorine test kit. But it takes a Total Chlorine test kit to note the presence of chloramine.

One thing I have noted over the years is that some people are just not aware that chlorophenol is a defect in beer. Those of you that drink peated Scotch may know that it has sometimes overbearing phenolic character. I have the feeling that some people think that since Scotch has it, its OK in beer too. Unfortunately, that is never true in beers. Some phenols are welcome in some styles, but chlorophenols are never desirable.

Virtually complete chlorine compound removal BEFORE USE is required for brewing water in order to avoid chlorophenol production in beer. For a little more guidance on this issue, visit the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water website.

[Befuddler]

I'm hoping that this is a mis-quote, or I'm afraid that I'll have to question Mr. Wheeler's authority.

I think you have every right to question Mr. Wheeler's authority on this subject, given your background!

Here are the figures from my water report (min, average, max):

Free Chlorine mg/l - 0.000, 0.221, 0.540
Total Chlorine mg/l - 0.000, 0.277, 0.650

I'm assuming the minimum of zero must be an erroneous measurement, because all public drinking water in the UK contains disinfectant. At those levels, I'm sure there's more than enough to produce detectable chlorophenols. I can certainly smell and taste chlorine in my tap water.

[chastuck]

A very good reply from Martin which should put the record straight on the harm and removal of chlorines/chloramines.

[dynamic dave]

Most water has chloramine as its more stable than chlorine also much harder to reduce chloramine by boiling either filter your water with brita filter removing 80 to 90% or add Camden tablet to the start of the boil.
If worried about cost of filters ASDA sell there own £8.25 for jug plus one filter,replacement filters are £4.00 for two over half price than Brita filters.
We use them for a kettle water makes a great cup tea and last one month.

[Martin G]

The use of ascorbic acid in the link given by Martin Brungard is interesting as an alternative to sulphites. Is there a link or book somewhere that explains how chloramine react with the wort to produce chlorophenols, I have looked on the brunwater site but cannot find an expansion of the statement from Martin Brungard that 'chlorophenols are created instantly upon contact of wort compounds'.

[Aleman]

Most water has chloramine as its more stable than chlorine also much harder to reduce chloramine by boiling either filter your water with brita filter removing 80 to 90% or add Camden tablet to the start of the boil.

Uh Uh

Treat teh water with a campden tablet BEFORE you do anything else with it.

No point running it through a brita filter either . . .for chlorine removal (in all it's forms) metabisulphite is the cheapest and most effective method

Chlorine is one of those very reactive elements that will when it comes into contact with other elements/compounds react more or less instantly . . Phenols don't just come from the hops , but also from the malt so will be formed in the mash and chlorophenols once formed are pretty stable

[dynamic dave]

The activated carbon filter eliminates bad odor and the taste of halogen compounds that chlorine makes when present in tap water.The exchange ion resin lowers the concentration of calcium carbonates, accordingly softening tap water.
And Camden Tablets are Potassium Metabisulite and course no harm to mash liquor.

[chastuck]

The activated carbon filter eliminates bad odor and the taste of halogen compounds that chlorine makes when present in tap water.The exchange ion resin lowers the concentration of calcium carbonates, accordingly softening tap water.
And Camden Tablets are Potassium Metabisulite and course no harm to mash liquor.

I think you will find that campden tablets in the UK are made from sodium met. In the USA a campden tablet is generally still pot. met. I believe that potmet is considered to be a greater irritant than sodmet in the EU, so there seems to be a general thing that potassium as a constituent is not used in EU countries.

[orlando]

Virtually complete chlorine compound removal BEFORE USE is required for brewing water in order to avoid chlorophenol production in beer. For a little more guidance on this issue, visit the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water website.

Martin I read the section in Brun' Water quoted below:

"(Campden Tablet) addition is effective for chlorine and chloramine removal. The tablets are either potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite. Both are effective in disinfectant removal. When sodium content in the brewing water is a concern, potassium metabisulfite may be preferred. Moderate potassium content in brewing water generally has less effect on brewing performance or taste. Adding these compounds at a rate of about 9 milligrams per liter (~35 milligrams per gallon or ~1 tablet per 20 gallons) or (~1 tablet per 75 liters) will dechlorinate typical municipal water and leave residual concentrations of about 3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride. These ion contributions are relatively insignificant and can be ignored in practice. The reaction equations for chlorine and chloramine with metabisulfite are shown below. Note that extra H+ protons are produced by the reactions (acidity) and the water alkalinity will be reduced."

Happy with all that but was interested in your comment that I've highlighted. Can you be more specific here? I'm assuming this is very small or you would need to know whether a campden tablet was being used for the calculations in your spread sheet? Could you also comment on the sodium addition and how that might affect the calculations too? Currently I make no allowance for the addition of 1/2 a campden tablet in approx 45 litres of brewing liquor spread roughly 1/3 mash 2/3 sparge liquor.

[Aleman]

I think it's around 2ppm reduction in alkalinity. The water treatment stuff in the brewniversity pages on here has the details