[FIXED] Electric Brewery Problem - Elements won't work

[och29]

No voltage at the element, will go and bypass the relay on the neutral feed.

[Belter]

If you have voltage before but not after the relay then the problem is at the relay. A continuity meter on buzzer mode with the power off will prove continuity on your relay. Then disconnect the power to the contact but leave power on to the coil and prove continuity on contact. If it beeps when it's supposed to and changes when the power is on then the relay is fine. Could be a faulty relay.

[och29]

Well one puff of magic smoke and the whole thing doesn't work now... starting to get really fed up with this! I'm not sure that three relays would all be broken but I guess I won't be able to test that for a while. Thanks for your help but I think I'll just have to start from the beginning again, this time without the relays and just the SSRs.

[Belter]

Puff of smoke?!?! :O :O !!!

What blew up?

[themadhippy]

o bugger,once the magic smokes escaped its fubared.

In the UK the neutral can go to the element and the line conductor only isolated by the SSR

The ssr wont isolated the supply,even when the control side is off theres a small bleed through current, enough to make you say bad words if you come into contact with it ,and more than enough to show full voltage on a multimeter.

[Belter]

o bugger,once the magic smokes escaped its fubared.

In the UK the neutral can go to the element and the line conductor only isolated by the SSR

The ssr wont isolated the supply,even when the control side is off theres a small bleed through current, enough to make you say bad words if you come into contact with it ,and more than enough to show full voltage on a multimeter.

Yeah I know but these relays aren't marketed to be used with other relays. Otherwise you may as well just buy the other one. Perhaps I read the drawing wrong. And by isolated I should have said switched off. I did mention that they leak enough current to power a neon.

In my panel I keep the SSR's at the top of the panel out of the way and eventually intend on buying some covers for them. Despite me seeing them on every panel I ever see them in I can't seem to buy the covers.

I've come to quite enjoy the feeling you get when you slip and touch 230v. I've never gone across two phases though :

Can you see where the Op is going wrong mad hip?

[och29]

After a couple of hours the magic smoke seems to have gone back to where it should be. The panel is now working again (although one of the probes on my multimeter is no longer pointy!) but the original problem hasn't been solved. I tried connecting a wire directly from the element output 'plug' to the neutral bus but that didn't solve the problem.

I'm beginning to think that all three mechanical relays that connect to the HLT, boil and HERMS elements aren't working though it seems strange that all three won't work but the mains power one still does. Any more ideas... at the moment I've spent so long building the darn thing I might just bypass the mechanical relays so I can at least get a first brew while I'm free over Christmas.

[themadhippy]

I tried connecting a wire directly from the element output 'plug' to the neutral bus but that didn't solve the problem.

so the problems on the live side,or the control circuit,have you tried by passing the relays,bit of wire wedged into the relay base pins is easiest,but dont do it with the power on,else you might loose your eye brows if you push it into the wrong hole.

[och29]

To clear up the reason for two relays for anyone who might come back to this thread in the future:

SSRs are great at switching on and off quickly (so ideal for PID control) but because they're solid state they never truly isolate the electricity.
Mechanical relays are just a big physical switch so they truly isolate the supply but because they're mechanical they don't cope well with being turned on and off many times.

In this setup the mechanical relay only turns on when you 'select' an element to use. In my case the boil and HLT are 5.5kw elements so they share a 3 way switch to prevent both being on at the same time and drawing too much current. The mechanical relays acts like a drawbridge to allow or prevent current getting to the element. The SSRs will turn on and off as the PID tells them to, sending current through the element as long as the 'drawbridge' mechanical relay is closed.

tl;dr The mechanical relay is a safety device, the SSR does all the switching on and off of the element

[Belter]

I read the drawing as the mechanical relay being after the ssr. Therefore It has a purpose. I still wouldn't use one but appreciate why you have in this case. I have Powercon true1 connectors that disconnect under load. The only way my SSR's could cause any harm is if I touched them directly.

[och29]

According to The Electric Brewery they suggest working from PID through to the element:
My PID output lights switches on (so they are working)
The light on the SSR comes on and I can measure 240V when I connect across the two load terminals (so they are working)

Do you think it's worth connecting a wire from the output of (for example) the HERMS SSR to one side of the HERMS output plug and a wire from the other side of the output plug to the neutral bus? Hopefully that way I can be absolutely sure if the PID/SSR is working and at least make a brewing a possibilty this week!

[Belter]

If the ssr is on and you're measuring between the two terminals you shouldn't get 240v as they are the same potential.


Can you upload some photos of your rig please.

[bobsbeer]

What voltage are you sending to your relay coils? 12/24v? Is it the right voltage for your relay?

[themadhippy]

Code: Select all

Do you think it's worth connecting a wire from the output of (for example) the HERMS SSR to one side of the HERMS output plug and a wire from the other side of the output plug to the neutral bus?

definitely

you shouldn't get 240v as they are the same potential

wanna bet ,although without a load there shouldnt be.,but the meter becomes the load

[och29]

Will go out now and connect direct... unless the wind gets me!