Corny, beer engine, breather.

[stringy]

Hi!
I am trying to get together set up which will work with a beer engine. I am fairly sure i can connect a cask breather to a cornelius keg, in order to maintain a blanket of CO2 over my beer without pressurising it. However i have read that corny kegs require a bit of pressure in order to seal the lid, is this true? am i likely to run into problems doing this? Has anyone ever connected up a caskbreather to a corny?
Any advice would be greatfully recieved!
Cheers

[eskimobob]

I'm not familiar with the Beer engine but unless it has a pump to extract the beer, you won't be able to get the beer out of the cornie when it is not pressurised :huh:

[Frothy]

I've found two scenarios - one of my cornys seals well and the other requires a bit of gas to seal properly - the difference being that the latter has lost one of the plastic legs on the lid mechanism.

Those beer engines are simply a hand pump aren't they? I'm sure if you had the gas inlet connect attached to allow some air in the system should work fine, the aperture is no bigger than that on the top of a real ale beer keg

Matt

[Immy's Dad]

Some info wot I pinched

"The beer engine is a half-pint (sometimes a 1/4 pint), airtight piston chamber - pulling down on the handle raises the piston which drags up a half pint of beer. When a cask is first tapped into the beer engine, or after the lines have been washed through, the pump needs to be pulled several times to clear the lines of air or water. The line will continue to hold beer, which will tend to go stale overnight, so the first beer pulled through will be bad beer, and this will be simply thrown away."

"If you peek over the bar at the spout from which the beer emerges you may notice a small flip tap and a short spout - this is normal. If you notice the spout is quite long with a hairpin curve this is a swan-neck which is designed to force the beer into the glass, agitating it so that a head is created and some flavour is reduced.
In some pubs in the north of England, a small device or cap is fitted to the end of the spout rather like a sprinkler at the end of a hose pipe. Like the sprinkler at the end of a hose, this can be twisted to regulate the flow of the beer. When the sparkler is tight, the beer is severely agitated resulting in a large head but a significant loss of flavour and mouthfeel. Drinkers in the North prefer their beer this way - it is softer and creamier with less bitterness. Drinkers in the South prefer their beer with a touch more bitterness, and a slightly harder mouthfeel."

[eskimobob]

QUOTE resulting in a large head but a significant loss of flavour and mouthfeel

Am I missing something :huh: Where does the flavour go? Does the sparkler cause some kind of chemical change? It obviously forces some CO2 out of solution which I guess could account for the change in mouthfeel but would it affect flavour that much?? :blink:

[Andy]

eb - I reckon it's beer-luvvie talk. If you *want* to perceive a difference then I'm sure you will perceive a difference

Personally I prefer a pint with no head (get more beer ) so would prefer no sparkler for that reason alone.

[Andy]

QUOTE (eskimobob @ Jun 26 2006, 11:23 PM) I'm not familiar with the Beer engine but unless it has a pump to extract the beer, you won't be able to get the beer out of the cornie when it is not pressurised :huh:
I'm guessing that the pump works on a vacuum arrangement with a one-way valve for the beer coming into the pump. Pull pump down and a vacuum effect draws beer into the pump through a valve, push pump back up and the beer in the pump is forced out of the dispense head as the one-way valve is now shut. The cask breather allows CO2 into the cornie to replace the volume which is being lost as beer is dispensed. The intention being to maintain a blanket of CO2 over the beer.

[tribs]

Stringy,

I admire what you are trying to do, and I have looked into doing something similar myslef. However the lengths you are going to in order to simulate Real Cask Ale are probably overkill in my opinion.

I have a few cornies with a simple tap with flow control and have kegged two ales so far. The first I force carbonated, but I had problems with the regulator. The results were good but not quite what I was hoping for.

The second, I have naturally carbonated in the keg with 30g of corn sugar and added 50g of dry hops in a muslin bag with a sanitised shot glass to weigh it down. This is very close to your typical Cask Conditioned Ale albeit a little cloudy (which may settle down over time). I am dispensing using CO2 and I don't think you'd notice much difference compared to Cask Conditioned Ale.

I am about to keg a TT Landlord clone. I am going to try and experiment with an attachment to the dip tube so it doesn't suck off the bottom and the use of finings to get a clearer finished product.

I would reccomend getting a simple cornie system at first and experiment with that before splashing out on an expensive beer engine and cask breather type system.

Either way, good luck and welcome

[tribs]

What I was planning to do was add a piece of syphon tubing and cable tie it to itself to create a U bend. I was unsure whether I'd have to cut off the dip tube or not though and I'm not sure the blade on my hacksaw would get through the Stainless Steel.

TBH, the fined beer from your photo looks spot on B) so I may try just fining (I've some BeerCleer II in my cupboard) and leave the dip tube as is for now.

The first pint looks just like the first several pints of my currently kegged ale.

[tribs]

QUOTE Not visable in the photo close but inspection showed lot of particles of issinglass (fish bits  )

Was this in the first pint only?

[Andy]

I use gelatine as finings a la jims method and <touch wood> all my brews to date have been crystal clear. The first half pint dispensed from a cornie looks like the left hand beer in DaaB's pics but from then on I get clear beer right down to the last dregs of the cornie - which are then cloudy (last 1/2 pint). I let the finings do their work in my king keg conditioning barrel and then only transfer the bright beer to the cornie.

[stringy]

cheers for all the feedback guys!

I have already got a 1/4pint worthside beer engine which i picked up off ebay, next on my list is a corny keg. I think i will get used to using them before i try fixing it up to a cask breather and beer engine, will need time to save up for the cask breather anyway - and find out where i can get one from!
I was wondering wether using gas to dispense the beer from a corny will cause it to over carbonate??
Im sure all will become a lot clearer when i get a corny set up!! :blink:

[Andy]

You can control the carbonation in the cornie by adjusting the CO2 pressure. Around the 20 PSI level then the beer will force carbonate but turn the pressure down and it won't.

http://www.promash.com has a CO2 carbonation calculator in it.

[Frothy]

I don't get this breather?
When I worked in a pub the beer engine was connected to the barrels of real ale and the barrels had a hole in the top with a wooden peg/ bung which was left open to allow the air in as the beer was pumped out?

Matt

[stringy]

A breather is a device which will fill the headspace of a keg with co2, at atmospheric pressure, as beer is drawn out. This is so that o2 does not come in contact with the beer, as would normally happen with a cask ale in a pub. This means that the beer wont oxidise, and will last longer.
There is great debate about wether or not they effect the taste of the beer in any way, and they are frowned upon by camra.

I reckon they would be quite usefull, as i would quite like to be able to use a beer engine, but certainly wouldnt get through a keg in a few days!