Does anybody recirc with a plate chiller?

jubby · Post by **jubby** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:14 pm

Having changed things around in the brewery I was thinking of maybe changing from Immersion to plate chiller but I'm not sure if I want the cold break in the FV. So, a couple of questions for those that have changed from IC to PC (or use both):

Did you notice any difference in taste or clarity?

Does anyone recirculate wort through the plate chiller back into the boiler to cool then pump into the FV to avoid cold break in the FV? If so, how long does it take to cool the wort to pitching temp?

I've had a good rummage through lots of posts but can't find the right answers.

Thanks in advance.

Nick.

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:22 pm

I recirculate the wort back into the kettle while chilling. I pump it through the hop spider so it can catch any break and utilise any hops in there. Once it's around 25c I run it off to the FV. If using pellet hops the spider begins to block so the wort rises up at the holes clog with hops and break so keep an eye on it if you do that.

No change in taste I could notice and a little less break in FV.

I haven't timed it but must be at least 15 mins to chill 20 litre batches which is still way more than I would like but working on trying to reduce that.

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k1100t · Post by **k1100t** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:30 pm

jubby wrote:Having changed things around in the brewery I was thinking of maybe changing from Immersion to plate chiller but I'm not sure if I want the cold break in the FV. So, a couple of questions for those that have changed from IC to PC (or use both):

Did you notice any difference in taste or clarity?

There's an article on Port 66 about this -> http://www.port66.co.uk/impact-includin ... -end-beer/

Wonkydonkey · Post by **Wonkydonkey** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:10 pm

I've just got a plate chiller, which I've done 2 brews with, both ive recirc in to the kettle, as I'm used to just an Imersion chiller and I add hops at flameout and at around 80c. The only thing I've noticed so far is my filter gets a bit blocked so I have to use a solar pump to pump the wort out, More so with pellets.
And I've noticed more trub/cold break in the fv Cos after the hops steeping Ive just switched on the plate chiller which has gone into the fv from 75c-ish to 24-ish

I can really say much more, apart from, I'm still ajusting my methods, just to see if I can improve it. But for me even thou there's more work involved in cleaning the PC during the brewing and not sitting around, it still means it's a slightly quicker brewday. Cos my IC was a bit slow at cooling.

jubby · Post by **jubby** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:34 pm

Fuzzy, thanks for that. It seems that it will take longer to cool if recirculating back into the boiler and avoiding cold break & trub in the FV.

K100t, That's a very interesting article which points towards the cold break & trub being beneficial! Many thanks. As you're not far from me, would you be interested in joining the Cambridge JBK group outings? It's nothing formal, just a few beers in Cambridge every 6 months (ish) to talk bollocks and taste each others beers. I will add you to the mailing list so you get a pm when we plan to meet if you're interested.

Wonky, thanks for sharing that. Kev888 has pointed out in a previous thread that I might need a decent hop filter which you have highlighted. I have one of brewbuilders FO filters and a spider so I was intending to use both and hopefully avoid any problems. As far as cleaning goes, I was hoping to just reverse flush the PC after use then recirc boiling wort through it for 10 mins on the next brew day.

Nick.

Wonkydonkey · Post by **Wonkydonkey** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:50 pm

As for cleaning of the PC, I'm being very carefull. As to avoid any chance of an infection. ATM I'm cleaning the PC with 70c caustic during brewing, then reverse flushing after cooling and also then hot caustic to clean it, then as I've noticed water is still sitting in it and can't get it out. I flush it with hot caustic while mashing.

The reason for so much hot caustic, we have a HBC member that blames the PC for his infections. I just was being very careful. But still adapting my methods/or rounding off corners, so to speak.. There will be some more rounding up to do...

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:56 pm

jubby wrote:Fuzzy, thanks for that. It seems that it will take longer to cool if recirculating back into the boiler and avoiding cold break & trub in the FV.

When running the wort from the boiler through the plate chiller and back to the kettle its being returned at around 40c to start with (if memory serves me), with a 125kw 30 plate chiller. I would like to try and submerge the plate chiller in iced water (after its been heat sterilized) but never got round to. I think this would help reduce the time even further but I've never had enough space in the freezer to make up a few trays of ice cubes to try it.

I still get trub in the FV but prefer to try and leave that in the kettle / spider if I can and just use some yeast nutrient before pitching. Less unwanted material in the FV then less to avoid when packaging to bottles or kegs. I can be drinking beers a year or 2 after brewing them as I try and keep a few bottles of each batch back to try at a later date so my thinking (correct or not) is to try and package them as clear as possible to try stop anything from adding unwanted flavors. I don't know it that helps but even opening a 2 year old brew its still very drinkable comparing that to older brews that didn't have as much effort into chilling them down as this. That might be down to a combination of better techniques all round but it seams to work for me.

Anyway that just my way of doing it but I am really keen to try an put the Place Chiller in an ice bath to see how much that helps.

Kev888 · Post by **Kev888** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:03 pm

Cold break in the FV isn't terrible, people don't tend to see any great difference (hot break is worse). There are pros and cons to it - it can provide a source of sterols to help build cell walls, but it can also gunk up the cells a bit, slightly hampering them. In an ideal world, the wort would provide the neutrients and the break omitted, or else the cold break be allowed in for a short while and then separated soon into fermentation, but thats not easy unless you have a conical. IIRC cold break carries on forming for a while after chilling, so you will likely get some in the FV even using an IC or recirculating.

Rapid chilling tends to form a better cold break though, which is a good thing whether it ends up in the FV or not. So by preference I don't recirculate when cooling (unless just to reach an 80c steep), bur rather chill right from near boiling to fermentation temperature in one quick step.

There is an argument that this leaves the wort in the kettle warmer for longer, which may produce more DMS post-boil. However if your plate chiller or (in my case) CFC is fairly efficient the difference in time over a (usually slower) IC is minimal, and the kettle wort tends to remain hot enough to be venting plentiful vapour for that period, too.

jubby · Post by **jubby** » Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:49 pm

Thanks for the info and sharing experiences. After reading and watching lots of stuff, I think the key is rapid cooling (as Kev888 highlights) to produce a good cold break. If some or all of it ends up on the FV, It's probably not a bad thing. I think when all said & done, cleaning and sanitizing a plate chiller is between us and our maker, as in what can you get away with...

I'm hoping to just recirc hot wort through it for 10 mins before using.

Nick.

k1100t · Post by **k1100t** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:11 am

jubby wrote:As you're not far from me, would you be interested in joining the Cambridge JBK group outings? It's nothing formal, just a few beers in Cambridge every 6 months (ish) to talk bollocks and taste each others beers. I will add you to the mailing list so you get a pm when we plan to meet if you're interested.

Go for it...

Post by **orlando** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:52 pm

jubby wrote: As you're not far from me, would you be interested in joining the Cambridge JBK group outings? It's nothing formal, just a few beers in Cambridge every 6 months (ish) to talk bollocks and taste each others beers. I will add you to the mailing list so you get a pm when we plan to meet if you're interested.

Do any of that group go to the the Anglian Craft Brewers Cambridge & Mid Essex monthly meetings? The next meeting of the C&ME group will take place in Chelmsford at The Hop Beer Shop, Moulsham Street at 7.30pm on Tuesday 9th May. To join just go to the website here.

Post by **orlando** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:59 pm

jubby wrote:I think when all said & done, cleaning and sanitizing a plate chiller is between us and our maker, as in what can you get away with...

I'm hoping to just recirc hot wort through it for 10 mins before using.

I saw a plate chiller that had been used like this and "cleaned". The sh1t that came out of it when a dishwasher tablet was used to soak it in was

astonishing. Take a look. PC's are brilliant, even in summer which is another answer to how quick, depends on the groundwater temp. Their problem is you can't dismantle them to see where the problems lurk, in this regard IC's are way more trouble free. But that doesn't mean you have to forgo the benefits, it does mean you have to get a bit anal about it. Flushing, cleaning (hot recircuated PBW is superb) flushing and autoclaving or pressure cooking is in my view essential for peace of mind. I have followed this regime from new but decided a caustic soda soak would be prudent. 1/2 hour and I emptied it to find............nothing!

jubby · Post by **jubby** » Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:57 pm

Do any of that group go to the the Anglian Craft Brewers Cambridge & Mid Essex monthly meetings? The next meeting of the C&ME group will take place in Chelmsford at The Hop Beer Shop, Moulsham Street at 7.30pm on Tuesday 9th May. To join just go to the website here.

Hi Orlando, I don't think any of us go to their meetings. A couple of us used to go along to the local craft brewer group meetings (can't remember the name of it and it's changed now) but not any more.

Sounds like your PC cleaning regime works well, as for the link I'm not sure how to take that. 'Cleaning' can be subjective and if there's still a bit of old hop lurking inside, would that be a problem? My IC has bits & bobs from the last brewday stuck to it and it's never an issue. I guess that with a PC, blockage is another issue so you would need to make sure it's fairly clear. I'm slowly stepping up my proposed cleaning methods though....just in case

mosquat · Post by **mosquat** » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:27 pm

I blast my PC with cold water via a garden hose, connected using camlockd to give it a high pressure cleanse. Then soak with percarb and boiling water. Rinse with hot water then dry in the oven. Pre brew day I leave in a hot oven for an hour at a high temp with outlets covered in foil. Has worked so far for me....hope it continues!

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simon12 · Post by **simon12** » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:34 pm

Just a warning if your using caustic to clean a plate chiller make sure theres no copper in it or it will eventually dissolve that to, also its dangerous but I assume you all know that.

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